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Frisland not mythical but submarine?


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#46    Riaan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:01 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 July 2010 - 09:02 PM, said:

Btw, I have a request to you: if you have access to accurate bathymetric maps (and I guess you do, despite what you suggested earlier) can you please post an accurate bathymetric map of the area around and with the Faroe Islands?

The best I can do (NASA, 680KB): download here

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#47    lightly

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:52 PM

That's amazing!  You can tell by the colors... and the now submerged river southwest of Ireland.. that about 90%?  of all we see in that picture was above water!  ...  for how long ???     . . .please.

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#48    Riaan

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 05:32 AM

View Postlightly, on 23 July 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

That's amazing!  You can tell by the colors... and the now submerged river southwest of Ireland.. that about 90%?  of all we see in that picture was above water!  ...  for how long ???     . . .please.

Indeed. The image shown here (413 KB) is even more puzzling. There can be no doubt that the river you are referring to is precisely that - an ancient river. Notice however that this river runs down to the same depth as the submarine canyons on the continental shelf south of Britain. These canyons were (supposedly) formed by turbidity currents (I have included a bit on that here, Fig. 1.17b). If the river had been formed by running water, then certainly the submarine canyons must likewise have been formed by rain erosion. If so, Europe must have been much higher above sea level for millions of years, and if so, the same would apply to Australia. ?

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#49    Riaan

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 06:27 AM

View PostRiaan, on 24 July 2010 - 05:32 AM, said:

Indeed. The image shown here (413 KB) is even more puzzling. There can be no doubt that the river you are referring to is precisely that - an ancient river. Notice however that this river runs down to the same depth as the submarine canyons on the continental shelf south of Britain. These canyons were (supposedly) formed by turbidity currents (I have included a bit on that here, Fig. 1.17b). If the river had been formed by running water, then certainly the submarine canyons must likewise have been formed by rain erosion. If so, Europe must have been much higher above sea level for millions of years, and if so, the same would apply to Australia. ?

PS: The slope of the river in question is about 1.3 (4 km drop over 180 km), which would hardly be enough to sustain turbidity currents.

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#50    Abramelin

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:29 PM

Thanks for the image, Riaan.

I enlarged the area of the Faroe, but I see nothing, no rivers, and not even glacier valleys. I guess Alewyn possessed a much more detailed map.

About those rivers Lightly talks about: it is a known fact that during the hight of the last ice age, the whole Celtic Shelf (the area on which Ireland, the UK and the Channel are located) was above water. The ice reached up to northern Ireland and half way down England or even further, the area south of the ice sheets was a barren tundra, as has been shown by finds. So yes, the rivers will have formed valleys that are now below sealevel.

But all that happened like 15000 or more years ago...

The Friesland island was - according to Zeno and later carthographers - still in existence in the 14th and 15th century.

Personally I have no more doubt about what it could have been: the Faroe Islands, with the Frisan (pirate) population dominating the events back then, and telling about 'their' country to other people they met, and simply calling it 'Friesland', because they must have been of the opinion it was them who really owned it.

The question would then be, why is Friesland Island a single island, while the Faroe Islands is an archipelago.

I don't think it was because Friesland Island was further above sea level in the 14th century then the present Faroe archipelago; if you look at the available Friesland maps, you will see several capes and fjords, and also several much smaller islands around the main island of Friesland. I think the fact that the 14th century maps depict it as a single larger island is based on vague descriptions of the total shape of area occupied by the island.

We know of the earliest maps of the east coast of America, and even though the first explorers had been there, the newly discovered lands were not depicted accurately; that changed for the better in later centuries.


#51    Riaan

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 24 July 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

it is a known fact that during the hight of the last ice age, the whole Celtic Shelf (the area on which Ireland, the UK and the Channel are located) was above water. The ice reached up to northern Ireland and half way down England or even further, the area south of the ice sheets was a barren tundra, as has been shown by finds. So yes, the rivers will have formed valleys that are now below sealevel.

But all that happened like 15000 or more years ago...
Hi Abramelin,

This is indeed true, but in that case the sea level would have been lower by 100m or so, not more. The river in question descends to about 4000m below current sea level, which would imply that much more than only the Celtic shelf would have been exposed. Could this have had something to do with a massive impact of an asteroid or something? An impact that could have changed the shape of the earth, i.e. from perfectly spherical to slightly ellipsoidal? The equatorial radius of the earth is about 21 km more than the polar radius. This is pure speculation, of course. Trying to make sense of the river / submarine canyons.

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#52    Abramelin

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:20 PM

View PostRiaan, on 24 July 2010 - 10:02 PM, said:

Hi Abramelin,

This is indeed true, but in that case the sea level would have been lower by 100m or so, not more. The river in question descends to about 4000m below current sea level, which would imply that much more than only the Celtic shelf would have been exposed. Could this have had something to do with a massive impact of an asteroid or something? An impact that could have changed the shape of the earth, i.e. from perfectly spherical to slightly ellipsoidal? The equatorial radius of the earth is about 21 km more than the polar radius. This is pure speculation, of course. Trying to make sense of the river / submarine canyons.


The sea level dropped 130 m (426 feet) or more during the interval from around 30,000 to 15,000 years ago, when Ireland became part of continental Europe [again], and sea levels have been generally rising ever since, albeit at a much slower rate. The image to the left represents the land mass of Europe near the time of the last glacial maximum (minus the ice sheets and the ocean water). Take a close look at the "British peninsula" and the outline of Ireland and Great Britain upon it.

Posted Image
Posted Image

http://www.rootsweb....ihm/ancient.htm

Rivers don't just stop carving out a gulley when they've reached the coast, they continue to do so for miles at the sea bottom. And that is because of the soil they carry along.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 July 2010 - 10:36 PM.


#53    lightly

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 12:08 AM

ya know what?   think about this please.....    it's now known and accepted that the Earth's tectonic plates move about.   It's becoming understood that the earth's surfaces Rise and Fall.  I have a strong suspicion , that those rising and falling actions are more energetic and possibly irratic than we now realize???   Wouldn't that explain some of the questions you guys are asking about  why this island is up.. that island went down..   this area is inexplicably elevated... that area is unexplainably depressed...  and so on.     ! ? . ?

*

Edited by lightly, 25 July 2010 - 12:13 AM.

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#54    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 12:30 AM

Don't look for the improbable, look for the bloody obvious, please.

The Faroe Islands were inhabited by Frisian pirates. Several of the names of the villages and all that on Friesland Island are similar to names on the Faroe Islands.

This area didn't sink, it was just the Faroe Islands, also known as Friesland Island.


#55    Riaan

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 05:31 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 24 July 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:


Rivers don't just stop carving out a gulley when they've reached the coast, they continue to do so for miles at the sea bottom. And that is because of the soil they carry along.


For 180 km? Highly improbable.

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#56    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 03:06 PM

View PostRiaan, on 25 July 2010 - 05:31 AM, said:

For 180 km? Highly improbable.

You better show an image; it's kind of hard to find a really sharp and detailed image of the sea floor of that area.


#57    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 05:29 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 July 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

You better show an image; it's kind of hard to find a really sharp and detailed image of the sea floor of that area.

OK, maybe I said it in the wrong words, but I meant a map showing depths.


The next is part of your map , Riaan:

Posted Image

Now, if you look at the lighter blue area, the area that was above sea level (that's about 150 meters down now), and then to those rivers, then what makes you think these ancient rivers are 4000 meters down?

It looks to me like an ancient and now submerged delta, just several meters deeper down than the lighter blue area.


--

Again, from the map you posted (this time the submerged area around the Faroe) :

Posted Image

This area has nothing like rivers at all, and it doesn't resemble Friesland Island on the ancient maps.

I wonder what map Alewyn must have used.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 July 2010 - 05:43 PM.


#58    DieChecker

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:46 PM

I remember reading that since fresh water is heavier then salt water, that unless there is a bay, estuary or delta, the river just keeps on going and will run off the edge of the coninental shelf. The river can even still form a canyon under the ocean as it is still flowing and erodes a riverbed to travel in.

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#59    lightly

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:47 PM

View PostRiaan, on 24 July 2010 - 05:32 AM, said:

Indeed. The image shown here (413 KB) is even more puzzling. There can be no doubt that the river you are referring to is precisely that - an ancient river. Notice however that this river runs down to the same depth as the submarine canyons on the continental shelf south of Britain. These canyons were (supposedly) formed by turbidity currents (I have included a bit on that here, Fig. 1.17b). If the river had been formed by running water, then certainly the submarine canyons must likewise have been formed by rain erosion. If so, Europe must have been much higher above sea level for millions of years, and if so, the same would apply to Australia. ?


New Zealand ...   off topic.. just wanted to show the submerged rivers
Attached File  N.Z. shelf.jpg   38.98K   9 downloads

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#60    DieChecker

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:48 PM

If the ocean did get 4000 meters down, then where did all that water go? -4000 meters of ocean would likely mean +15000 meters or more of ice on the continents.

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