That's one thing we have in common! Although sometimes I am not sure if it is going, or just sliding down LOL.
I do not regard Bush as a terrorist. I dot not agree with many of his ideals, particularly gun ownership, but I am not sure he was left with much of a choice after 911 to take the action taken. I do not think he would be regarded as evil if he had just pulled troops from Afghanistan in 1990. The middle East thought he was OK when the US fought alongside Mujahideen, but when they were victorious, The US forgot to go home. That to me seems really blown out of proportion. Many took such deep offence to US forces in the Holy land, and how that was contravening the Koran with regards to Holy Ground. I do not think the Middle East have a sound argument in the respect personally.
Such are the benefits if Religion I guess.
I understand why you don't see Bush as a terrorist and he is, dare I say it, not wholly a bad person, but I do not see much of a difference between Bush or Osama, in terms of there reasons for terrorism and even their beliefs behind it. Osama is a terrorist to me and you because he and his group AQ have committed terrible atrocities but Bush and in particular his neo con group have done exactly the same in the war on terror the innocent people of Afghanistan, Iraq and now Pakistan. Osama may have been responsible for the deaths of over 3000 people but Bush may have been responsible for the deaths of over 100,000+.
I suppose it is because I don't support either side, by which I mean, I do not try and justify the differences by thinking that it's wrong for Osama to have killed those 3000 but its OK for Bush to have killed 100,000 whether it was in retaliation, cause it was war, cause it was X reason. The same arguments could be applied to the other side and American lives in my eyes are no more valuable or less valuable than the lives of those in Afghanistan or Iraq. All lives are equally valuable in my eyes. Of course, the lives of those I love maybe more valuable to me than to you, but vice versa. They are still equally valuable to each of us. Some times people get confused into thinking they are not equally valuable because we are blinded by images of patriotism, race, religion, sexual preferences, fashion, etc etc...and all the different subgroups that people want to identify with. This is what segregates people and causes divisions and in my eyes, both are wrong.
I do not think the middle east has much of an argument for religious grounds because I do not believe in religious arguments either.
I feel the US is responsible for atrocities like Haditha, and should be held accountable to provide evidence of justice, proof of action that is approved by the victim, and heavy compensation. I think these processes have to be transparent in a democratic situation or things will keep getting swept under the rug. I can even understand shooting at a car that refuses to stop, these animals use Children as bombs, it is not wonder that many soldiers have such an itchy trigger finger, but this style of Wild West violence must stop some place. Education would be a much better option if that is possible. With the current regime opposed to many Western influence, it is hard to see education being considered acceptable.
As for child bombers, you have to ask yourself what is so bad with there situation that they are resorting to using their own Children as bombs? Or soldiers in some countries? Just because they are bad people or animals doesn't really answer the reasons of why? Its a simplifying the argument to a jingoistic answer. I would again reverse the question in that what would have to be done to me, to make me want to make my child into a bomb?
To be honest, I can't honestly imagine what would have to be done to me and I have a open and pretty sick mind, but whatever it is, it must be much worse than I imagine.
Most popular here for his comments concerning rape and female assault. He says the women are like uncovered meat, and would draw cats. He see's rape as a natural act for a man, ands something a woman should be responsible for suppressing. He was the Imam of Australia and The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils appointed him Mufti of Australia in 1988.
And if this is what we hear from the children, it is hard to see this situation moving forward for another generation. Islam seem to want things this way, Shari'ah or nothing. Not all that different from apartheid.
LINK Video captures 8-year-old 'Jihad girl' urging Islamic uprising
Ruqaya was one of nine speakers in a considerable line-up, which included a controversial keynote from Taji Mustafa, described by the Opposition as a "hate preacher".
I find this horrendously irresponsible. This is Australia. My only hope is that the parents of this child are investigated by authorities.
However, I could easily find Christians who are just about as horrendously irresponsible this guy. Look at the Westboro Baptists brainwashing masses with stupid **** and many more fringes of just about every religion. I remember watching a program about child preachers in the US feeling and thinking how irresponsible these parents were. One in particular would spank their child as they called it, when the child at one point didn't want to perform.
Again, I do not justify it, but I wouldn't use that as a sample of why a religion is wrong.
Well I was not speaking so much of Islam, but Shari'ah. And yes, we would see one heck of an uprising, but my hope is there would only be one, not endless years of terrorism for some ridiculous religious notion and countless innocents unjustly trialled and murdered for archaic ideals.. That is letting the human species down as a whole IMHO. As such, I feel we have a right to speak out, it wont change anything I understand that, but people might start to become aware enough to start acting some time in the future.
I also hope of an uprising but not just where Sharia exists, everywhere. We have enough money and resources to feed, clothes, house every single man, women and child on this planet but yet we can't and get excuses as to why we can't, which in my opinion is more a letting down of the human species. People worldwide should have the freedom to speak out but as we know, speaking out freely can get you into trouble. Some people go ahead and do it anyway, sometimes to greater good of mankind and sometime to there own demise. The problem is the governors of all of our and their societies are always in a desperate bid to maintain their control over us. They will go to any lengths and it doesn't matter how they do it, whether it is done via religion, campaigning, repeating a line in the media, or simply done by staring down the barrel of a gun. Until people get a better concept of this ,whether it's Sharia law or Patriot acts it will never change.
His wife was Christine Oneill, his Mistress, Valerie James. An interview with her at this link.
I also wonder what he would have had to say if he had survived 9/11 and was still alive?
Do you not feel though, that a Western influence would eventually lead to outlining such practises as unacceptable though? Had the region undertaken the direction the Shah had pushed it in, we might well be fighting to remove a Spanish Inquisition style of secret police force, but it took Russia a while to tone down the KGB too, it seems likely that Westen ways would evolve this secret police out of the picture.
But you are right, I digress this would be an interesting conversation I think.
I understand where you are coming from and agree. My problems is that where we object to islam/Sharia being influenced on our society in the west, those in Islamic/sharia countries must be influenced by our western ideals and if they don't agree to our influence, then we will eradicate them, until they do conform to our way of thinking by imposing a tyrannical dictator like the Shah or if that don't work, impose a democracy.
To be honest, I'm glad you've stepped in the hope you can show or lead Skyeagle on how to debate more effectively.
If you do a job and you screw up and the consequences of your screw up are major, then you would expect to face the consequences, however just because you work in government wouldn't make you any less responsible or accountable.
The problem with 9/11, is that what if there is a pattern to these mistakes? Do you just consider that mind of a CTer is delusional and they will make patterns out of anything? (Which I might add some do..lol) Or do you delve deeper?
I think that is what most so called 9/11 CTers do? I'm sure most so called 9/11 CTers like myself believed the official story and why not, it sounds sensible on paper, hijackers flew planes into buildings, they fell and killed a lot of people end of story, mad jihadists. However when you delve deeper there is one thing that all CTers agree on, is that the official story isn't wholly true, even if they all can't agree on whether the towers were collapsed by thermite or laser beams.
I also have a theory of why some people object so strongly to CT theories and don't even allow or like people discussing it, regardless of whether there is any truth behind them or not, I think it's a fear. What would happen tomorrow if there was an untold amount of evidence released showing the complicity of elements of the US government, of course you would have people like Skyeagle denying it...lol...But I mean in terms of the bigger picture? I think you would find a serious breakdown in society when you are having to remove and arrest those people who were responsible. What if the current president decided to pardon them all, then there would probably be an overthrowing of government by the people. It is much more psychologically comforting to think that it was 19 muslim hijackers than to think your government would behind it.
Where I stand, is that I do not think it is impossible for the government to have been involved or let it happen, where as others think it is impossible whether there is evidence to show whether it is possible or not. And that is why I discuss possibilities and not absolutes. This is why I accept both possibilities in that OBL may have been involved despite the FBI's lack of hard evidence and despite his denials. However, I also accept that it is possible that he might not be involved as he denied or the FBIs lack of evidence suggest, so both are possible. What I do not do is accept that any one of them is impossible.
This is where the confusion comes and why I'm often polarised as a CTer, because those who often defend the OCT as the truth, are often the ones who claim that 9/11 CT are impossible. Where in as I believe that the truth often lies somewhere in between.
Impossible right? Well I wouldn't say it impossible but I do think it's highly probable that he will ever be proven right on that one..lol
You raise a good point though, why didn't more people come forward? I think some people did actually come forward, but it was probably dismissed as..."You mean Jimmy Saville? Who runs marathons and raises millions of pounds for charity and good causes?? Raped you as a child?? Look here you, stop telling lies and making things up about Jimmy, he would never do such a thing and I think it's irresponsible of you to try and suggest it you nut job, carry on with that and you'll be in trouble"....Or something to that effect....I'm sure some of them would look at the status of Saville and think, whose going to believe me?
I remember an ex of mines mother told us about the time she was sexually assaulted when she was 8, she told her mother who slapped her in the face . Her mother then told her to stop telling lies. Luckily, it never happened again and her uncle died 2 years later. But there are a multitude of reasons why people keep quiet....
If there was a conspiracy behind 9/11, it would be easy to see why people would keep quiet and there are plenty of things people keep quiet about everyday, whether what they know are through rumours or evidenced. Some people will speak out and often do, but as I've said before sometimes its benefit, sometimes it's there demise and people are known for bringing about their own demise unlike suicide bombers. And it also depends on how much people would know about a conspiracy. In large organisations, it's very easy to compartmentalise things so that one department doesn't know what the other one is doing or what they are doing collectively or working towards.
You appear to be opened minded, even if you don't agree with the conspiracy theory. Now I'm not using Jimmy Saville as evidence of a 9/11 conspiracy, but I hope it highlights why the conspiracy isn't impossible as some people like to think it is.
Edited by Stundie, 05 March 2013 - 04:08 PM.