236 replies to this topic

[freetoroam]

Drayno, on 17 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Essentially.

They'll sacrifice as many lives as they see fit.

yep and whats angers me is there are those out there who will sell them all the tools they need to do it with.....and I wonder what side they are on????

[MichaelW]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 17 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

But, to suggest Hamas is at fault in all of this is pure heresy.

So I'm assuming all those rockets just fired by themselves? It's people like you are the reason why this conflict still continues.

[Black Red Devil]

stevewinn, on 17 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

From day one the Israeli state as been under attack and for every decade thereafter, google 1948 war, when the Arab countries intervened attacking Israel, a coalition of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq Lebanon, Palestinian forces and any Arab and his camel/donkey volunteer force. skip a conflict or two and it brings you to the Six day war, were Israel kicked ass. fighting on three fronts. - to me this war could have stopped the vast majority of the problems we see today if Israel after pushing back the 'Axis' forces and capturing the lands of - The gaza strip - the West bank and the Sinai peninsula, annexing them as the spoils of war so redefining the Israeli state borders. today we'd have no Palestine, west bank or gaza strip. were lets face it all the troubles stem. the Palestinians / Arabs had lost the fight and so their land, - Egypt also losing territory (sinia peninsula). the surrounding Arab countries those named above would've had to offer their brothers asylum. using their phrase 'Brothers'. but it seems even these Arab countries keep the Palestinians at arms length. ask the reason why?

So, going by your theory, by annexing all the land, you eliminate the problem.  But, how about the population?  If their "Brothers" refused to take the conquered in, where would they go?  I suppose ethnic cleaning would have been the next approach.  That would have been quite some paradigm shift in history for Israel considering only a couple of decades earlier another group of individuals tried the same with them.

Then again, if ethnic cleaning wasn't possible and they colonised those lands instead of conquering them, by this time they would probably have the same issues that England has now, a swag of "foreigners" born in Israel who will never be accepted as Israeli's, will never get the same opportunities as Israeli's, will stick to their own kind as a method of recognition and defense and finally escalate their anger through criminal activity.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 17 November 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Black Red Devil]

Professor T, on 17 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge about the history of how all of this began is shaky at the best.. lest to say, that these more recent conflicts began with the formation of israel post WW2, when the world turned it's back on Palestine.. but the history goes well beyond that.. Everyone has opinions on who's right and wrong, and who gave who the right to do this or that in Israel... But it occurs to me that this line of questioning needs to stop when Bombs and rockets are flying because it only serves to fuel the fire and create seperation from facts and events at hand..

The world is confused about this imo. There is a storm of Propaganda and support for this side or that side and nothing... I mean Nothing is being done to stop this by certain powers that have it in their power to do something.

Anonymous, has claimed it has attacked the website of the Israeli government, www.tel-aviv.gov.il. The website was unavailable as of Saturday morning. The group also claimed it deleted a database at the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The cyber attacks come as a part of the so called #OpIsrael launched by Anonymous to rally support for the Palestinians.

The Israeli Defense Force has used Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram and other popular platforms to make the case for its campaign in Gaza as well as to issue a warning to Hamas.

Meanwhile.... Bombs rain, missiles fly, People die.. (which is what happens when the world turns it's back and just lets things happen.)

It's not about history, it's about finding solutions.  I'm sorry but I don't see the Israeli Govt looking for solutions. They have no interest to do so and the more this conflict continues, the more I get the impression they have no desire to.  While all this goes on, they're still building settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and denying the Palestinians all basic needs to live a normal existence.  I blame Israel for every death, because of their attitude towards a resolution and the reason why Hamas keeps on firing rockets (for Michael).

[and then]

The New Richard Nixon, on 16 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Will Hezballouh act to?

http://app.response....34cb922eaeb2c60

[stevewinn]

Professor T, on 17 November 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Again.. show some respect..
and at least do a bit more research into the political history of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas,  Fatah, The modern state of Israel and the cause and effect conflicts that have shaped the politics in the region before calling people "stupid"..

Hamas (an arm of the muslim brotherhood) wants a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which includs a Palestinian state based on the pre 1967 borders... Bah... (and here I go allowing this to be derailed).... tread lightly...

We can carry on being pedantic if thats what you want. you've already lost this argument. move on and let it go - starting to make yourself look foolish now.

As it stands today the people voted for a militant group to run their affairs, well thats fine but when the rockets start firing, don't be shocked when Israel responds. the United Kingdom classes Hamas as a terrorist group as does the European Union plus others that tells you all you need to know really.

its one thing being Anti Israeli, but to actually think Hamas is the solution for lasting peace then you are mistaken, but then when using Wikipedia as your main source of information you are going to be a little confused on the whole situation.

to say the whole situation is complex is a understatement, but how many years have to pass before we find a solution i've seen people claiming rights dating back to the 11th century. or border lines of 1947. but if you read United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 you'll find its as clear as mud regarding borders.

[stevewinn]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 17 November 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

So, going by your theory, by annexing all the land, you eliminate the problem.  But, how about the population?  If their "Brothers" refused to take the conquered in, where would they go?  I suppose ethnic cleaning would have been the next approach.  That would have been quite some paradigm shift in history for Israel considering only a couple of decades earlier another group of individuals tried the same with them.

Then again, if ethnic cleaning wasn't possible and they colonised those lands instead of conquering them, by this time they would probably have the same issues that England has now, a swag of "foreigners" born in Israel who will never be accepted as Israeli's, will never get the same opportunities as Israeli's, will stick to their own kind as a method of recognition and defense and finally escalate their anger through criminal activity.

It might have helped if after the six day war Israel would have pulled back from the occupied territories, in return for Gaza. in return the UN recognise a Palestinian state, - sign both upto the the UN charters so we prevent war crimes, humanitarian, so both states can be held to account, because we have a situation at the minute were hamas is running Gaza, and yet the PNA are in the west bank. Hamas as very little support in the west bank the PNA actually recognise Israels right to exist and their is a way forward between the pair - the Palestinian authority the west bank is mainly funded by aid organisations and some funding from Israel, yet cast your eye over to gaza and Hamas is getting its backing through the likes of Iran etc... the troubles today are coming from gaza. - listen i dont have the answers. its been over 70 years of world powers and statesmen  they cant find a solution i doubt we'll sort here on unexplained mysteries

[meryt-tetisheri]

stevewinn, on 17 November 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

sensitive soul, nothing derogatory about it, - any Arab and his camel/donkey volunteer force. simply means "alot of people"  as in "every man and his dog" google it,


The whole middle east is a mess from neighbouring countries using Hamas etc.. as pawns for there own gain, proxy wars. these rockets being fired have their finger prints all over them. how long before Israel says enough is enough. and wipes the floor with the lot of them. the stupid people who voted for Hamas have go what they deserve. Hamas as a party/group only exist to target Israel if there was peace in the region Hamas would be finished so its in their interest to start these skirmishes.

i tell you one thing two wrongs dont make a right but i'd back Israel any day over Islamic militants.

OK, I'm unfamiliar with the expression, can't sayI like it, but this is not the issue here.

I am not defending Hamas; on the contrary, I see their policy as irresponsible and even criminal towards their people. It took Fatah a couple of decades to arrive to the conclusion that the main achievement of haphazard violence is even more suffering of the Palestinians, Hamas seems to believe that somehow repeating the same mistake will lead to a different result, or is counting on dragging others into a wide-scale confrontation that can only lead to wider destruction. They are generally mistrusted and disliked in Egypt, despite the official position of the MB regime. Though Egyptians sympathize with the plight of Palestinians, Hamas is a different story. That they have repeatedly turned their guns on Egyptians, their incursions into Egypt's borders, or the way they bleed the resources of Egypt through illegal tunnels, have not been forgotten.

The point I was making in my previous post was about the annexation of lands as a guarantee of peace, that will never work, particularly with Sinai!

[shaddow134]

MichaelW, on 17 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

So I'm assuming all those rockets just fired by themselves? It's people like you are the reason why this conflict still continues.

Isreal may have the right to defend herself, but  i suppose if a country was illegally blockading my land by Land and Sea then i suppose i might feel the urge to fight back.

Until you remove the military influence from both sides,there will never be any solution to this constant cycle of Madness.That goes for Bibi the Crybaby as well.

Edited by shaddow134, 18 November 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Black Red Devil]

stevewinn, on 17 November 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

It might have helped if after the six day war Israel would have pulled back from the occupied territories, in return for Gaza. in return the UN recognise a Palestinian state, - sign both upto the the UN charters so we prevent war crimes, humanitarian, so both states can be held to account, because we have a situation at the minute were hamas is running Gaza, and yet the PNA are in the west bank. Hamas as very little support in the west bank the PNA actually recognise Israels right to exist and their is a way forward between the pair - the Palestinian authority the west bank is mainly funded by aid organisations and some funding from Israel, yet cast your eye over to gaza and Hamas is getting its backing through the likes of Iran etc... the troubles today are coming from gaza. - listen i dont have the answers. its been over 70 years of world powers and statesmen  they cant find a solution i doubt we'll sort here on unexplained mysteries

There are solutions you know, it's the will (or some agenda we're not privy to know) that's lacking.

[and then]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 18 November 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

There are solutions you know, it's the will (or some agenda we're not privy to know) that's lacking.

It's been like this for all the years since Israel became a State again.  Both sides want all the land.  I support Israel for religious reasons but I also realize that their secular government causes many problems in the region.  In spite of this though, I really think that the Palestinians could EASILY box Israel in by agreeing to a peace plan that gives Israel security and themselves  a contiguous State.  But to do this all the current leadership from Hamas and probably most of the PA would be rendered impotent and they will never allow this.  On the other side we have the settlers who would scream bloody murder - but - the majority of Israelis are SICK OF WAR.  They would give a lot to have peace.  According to StratFor analysts this current skirmish is going to last until Israel can destroy the long range Fajr 5 missiles that were provided by Iran.  200 air strikes yesterday alone.

[MichaelW]

*snip*

Quote

It's not about history, it's about finding solutions.

Well I'll be damned. You've said something remotely intelligent. Let's see if you can continue this streak.

Quote

I'm sorry but I don't see the Israeli Govt looking for solutions.

That streak was short lived. Honestly, do you really think the actions of Hamas are anything peaceful? Launching rockets and declaring open season on Israelis doesn't sound peaceful to me.

Quote

They have no interest to do so and the more this conflict continues, the more I get the impression they have no desire to.

Some could say the same for Hamas. Some won't say so because the collective idiocy that supports such organisations dictates that all who say Hamas aren't willing to try any peaceful measures are automatically Zionists and Nazis, as if such labels were compatible with one another. No matter, it's not like those people are actually capable of a reasoned discussion.

Quote

I blame Israel for every death, because of their attitude towards a resolution and the reason why Hamas keeps on firing rockets (for Michael).

Edited by libstaK, 18 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.
threatening a ban and offensive

[Professor T]

and then, on 18 November 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

It's been like this for all the years since Israel became a State again.  Both sides want all the land.  I support Israel for religious reasons but I also realize that their secular government causes many problems in the region.  In spite of this though, I really think that the Palestinians could EASILY box Israel in by agreeing to a peace plan that gives Israel security and themselves  a contiguous State.  But to do this all the current leadership from Hamas and probably most of the PA would be rendered impotent and they will never allow this.  On the other side we have the settlers who would scream bloody murder - but - the majority of Israelis are SICK OF WAR.  They would give a lot to have peace.  According to StratFor analysts this current skirmish is going to last until Israel can destroy the long range Fajr 5 missiles that were provided by Iran.  200 air strikes yesterday alone.

Exactly.. With particular Emphasis on SICK OF WAR..

But while the world takes sides in this the conflict will just contine..

Pressure needs to be placed on Both sides to stop.. Cease-fire.. But I'm not seeing much of that at all.

But what I am seeing is though are calls supporting the Palestinians or supporting the Israili governement.. (analogy being a school-yard fight)

Perhaps that is something to consider before any of us make posts supporting one side or the other..

[MichaelW]

Professor T, on 18 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Perhaps that is something to consider before any of us make posts supporting one side or the other..

Good luck with that. The majority of people on here make knee jerk reactions and most of them end up making uninformed posts. I've seen enough crap on here to last me a lifetime, most of which is from people pretending that Hamas is doing any good for Palestinians and their cause.

[libstaK]

MichaelW and BlackRedLittleDevil please refrain from personal taunts, insults and baiting.

Also MichaelW please do not presume to know on whom actions such as suspensions and bans may apply if you choose to engage in flaming and insults with other members.

Back on topic folks