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#181    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostSean93, on 01 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

If he never said that exact quote then why use it in the first place? Furthermore, why use his name in a negative light "Niettzche is dead" and then use him positively when you find a way to spin his web on your favor?

Religion and god may give meaning to the lives of many and that's fine and dandy but it works the same way as knowing Daddy is in the house when you fear the monster in the closet. As for saying that the rule of God gave order to society...are you ******* insane? You talk as if religion and god brought peace and prosperity to the land and now that Atheism is on the rise that that order is breaking down. In case you haven't noticed, in today's developed societies, we no longer pay indulgences, no longer have inquisitors killing witches and damning astronomers and above all, Atheists can actually express their opinions in public now without being Hanged, Drawn and Quartered so the quote I used from Hitchen's above stands firmly: Religion has had to sacrifice a lot and I'm glad Atheism rose to it's challenge, I certainly would not want to be living in a repressed and superstitiously ruled society where I can be killed for disagreeing with some idiot in a pointy hat. **** that.

God may be an anchor to the lives of many, and that is fine but all your talk of objective moral values is only faith, we can be good without God, in fact we can be better than god.

I simply pointed out that God is alive and well, while those that have tried so heartily to destroy him within the human spirit and mind, have passed on... Their words may live on a little longer, but that too shall pass.

As for the rest, you can certainly speak your mind, it doesn't change the fact that the world as we know it is going to Sht on a rocket. I wonder who you will blame (since God isn't in the picture of our oh so very modern and developed society) when it finally does?

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

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#182    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 01 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

No that is not basic logic, your "god" is the mirror image of the beast of revelation in your holy book.  Death to those who don't worship him.  There over 7 billion humans on this planet, we don't need to follow the philosophy of "might is right".  That is pure egotism and is dishonorable.  We have brains, time to start using them before we die because of some brain dead lunatic who thinks there can be only one.

I just wanna point out, that "might is right" is exactly how most people on this planet behave. That's why their respective countries behave in exactly the same way. It doesn't have to be with weapons, bankrupting others, is just as effective.

If anything, the only thing that has not allowed it to go further is humanities belief in God. You say that God's philosophy is of "might is right", if it were, there would be no atheists, they would have been zapped by God himself long ago... The fact that you can speak as you do is proof enough for me that Gods philosophy is different from what you state.

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-C. S. Lewis


#183    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:58 PM

View PostSean93, on 01 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

That certainly works both ways.

What makes your Truth any more viable and true than that of Islam?

Just say Faith instead of being so close-minded as to call Objective Moral Values 'Basic Knowledge'. If it's so basic then why do so many people disagree with it? If it was basic it would be easy to understand and believe but alas it is not.

Are you saying that we need God to be good?

No you need the fear of God to be good, but you need the love of God to truly change.

Your "objective Moral values" are BS. If they were objective, everyone would share them, yet you have millions of people all over the globe who spit on your moral values, because theirs are "SUPERIOR" according to their point of view. Moral values without a scale to wheigh them are as useless as a one legged man in a azz kicking contest.

Human Moral values are not "OBJECTIVE", as a matter of fact they are just the opposite. What is evil today, was considered good in the past, and maybe a few years from now, it will be the new fad again, and it will be "good". Change societies, peoples values will change as well. What may acceptable for the Chinese may be reprehensible to you, what may be perfectly acceptable to you, may be unacceptable to someone else.

God is the only true scale to wheigh your values on, drop him and you have nothing...

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#184    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'.  Mankind is different.  We exhibit an awareness of self.  That self realizes itself mostly as Ego.  As such, the 'gods' of prophets, ancient and dead, such as Moses, Abraham and Mohammed gave their 'god' Human Like qualities...anger, jealousy, etc.
God was invented by the mind of man and  is not logical.
That being said...I have no qualms whatsoever with those who strongly believe in God...even those who do have qualms with those who do not.

Interesting outlook, but on another thread, the basic conclusion is that "self" is actually the source of all evil on this world.

It is an error of epic proportions to believe that "The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'", it is the most basic and straight forward aspect of human nature, You find it everywhere, in our philosophies, in our politcs, in the very fabric of our society... we can see it every day for ourselves. If you want examples I could give you hundreds, Our nature speaks for itself.

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#185    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

No you need the fear of God to be good, but you need the love of God to truly change.
Are you trying to speak for everyone, or this is your "personal " belief? ... Well this does not in any way speak for me ..I am good without any fear of the god I follow...  I can truly change with my own abilities ..

Quote

God is the only true scale to wheigh your values on, drop him and you have nothing...

Is that so?  Many  ( and by that I mean millions upon millions  ) will  indeed disagree ...Including myself, and I am no atheist

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 January 2013 - 06:18 PM.

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#186    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 01 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

No that is not basic logic, your "god" is the mirror image of the beast of revelation in your holy book.  Death to those who don't worship him.  There over 7 billion humans on this planet, we don't need to follow the philosophy of "might is right".  That is pure egotism and is dishonorable.  We have brains, time to start using them before we die because of some brain dead lunatic who thinks there can be only one.

Excellent answer

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#187    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Interesting you should in fact raise this little issue...........So many will claim he didn't say it, so many will say he did say it

What some may not know  ( and I am just throwing this out here ) is that the word - MYTH  did not always mean fictional   The term myth meant - stories told by word of mouth, but not fictional in that sense ..The Greeks invented that term ( I think ) because I once read - .“Myth” comes from the Greek word “mythos” which means “word of mouth”.   Pope Leo X was very loyal to the Greeks and knew their language well

Stories passed on through time, even by anonymous people  ( some written down ) were called myths, but again in the context that those stories were true..peoples experiences and so forth

So, if Pope Leo did say - "It has served us well, this myth of Christ " ( and I have a feeling he may well have done ) .. that could be what he meant.. Not that he felt the stories were works of fiction, but the stories of Christ were true, but passed on by various people through word of mouth, then once written down, the authors were unknown

What could have happened  ( and this is just another guess from me ) ..Tales passed on by so many others over time about Christ, that once someone wrote it down, they couldn't take credit for a tale that they knew was passed on by word of mouth, so they remained anonymous ..I could be wrong about that, but one thing I am not wrong on is - The term myth ( back then ) didn't mean work of  fiction

Hi BM,

I hope all is well with you... :st

Now in regards to your post, I need to repeat what i said earlier... the quote is taken from a play. There is n't a single itsy bitsy shred of evidence ANYWHERE, that he ever said such a thing.

That being said, that particular Pope was anything but a believer, just as the one before him. They were politicians, pure and simple. Murder, Rape, Blackmail, Coercion, Fraud, all was acceptable, to gain the highest office in the land and keep it... Real believing christians were slaughtered left right and center by these mens unquenchable thirst for power. Let their family names bring what you know of history to mind, the de' Medicis' and the Borgia.

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#188    Yamato

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:19 PM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

If you want my worship you need to give something in return.
And so God turned into Santa Claus in the sky for adults.  

Maybe the universe exploded out of the head of a pin because God farted.  And our universe is so microscopically insignificant to the Multiverse that is God's that he's not going to be micromanaging every fine detail of every skeptical believer's life, such as whether or not they find a parking space, or whether their team wins its Bowl game, or whether Aunt Lucy survives her bout with cancer, or whether Johnny gets into Harvard (and so forth, ad infinitum)

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#189    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Hi BM,

I hope all is well with you... :st

Now in regards to your post, I need to repeat what i said earlier... the quote is taken from a play. There is n't a single itsy bitsy shred of evidence ANYWHERE, that he ever said such a thing.



Hope all is well with you too

I am not buying what you have posted as evidence that the pope did not say it. If I did agree with your post when I first read it, I would have said something... I had already read your side before I posted anything on that matter . I stand by what I posted originally on that subject.

The word myth  back then did not mean fiction..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 January 2013 - 06:22 PM.

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#190    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 January 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Hope all is well with you too

I am not buying what you have posted as evidence that the pope did not say it. If I did agree with your post when I first read it, I would have said something... I had already read your side before I posted anything on that matter . I stand by what I posted originally on that subject.

The word myth  back then did not mean fiction..

I know, it still does not change the fact that there is no single document anywhere that quotes him saying sucha thing... go figure. If you are willing to believe a line from a play who am I to change your mind...

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#191    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

View PostSean93, on 01 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

You talk as if religion and god brought peace and prosperity to the land and now that Atheism is on the rise that that order is breaking down.

My word, that itself is a narrow minded and hateful idea.. It reeks of hate and discrimination towards Atheists as a whole..

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#192    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 January 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Are you trying to speak for everyone, or this is your "personal " belief? ... Well this does not in any way speak for me ..I am good without any fear of the god I follow...  I can truly change with my own abilities ..

No I do not speak for everyone, otherise we wouldn't be having this debate, but I believe I can speak for those who know and believe the bible. As it so clearly states... "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is insight."

Since most people don't have the slightest idea why this is important, here is an interesting article. http://www.google.co...JcWqooIsyMehK_w

Quote

Is that so?  Many  ( and by that I mean millions upon millions  ) will  indeed disagree ...Including myself, and I am no atheist

And that is exactly my point, when multitudes disagree on the most basic of things like "objective moral values", who is right? Without a superior scale to measure up to, you are just one of many with an opinion no more valid than the next person. When that opinion is acted upon, you will face others who may well be insulted by your actions, because their moral stance is is radically different from yours.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#193    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

I know, it still does not change the fact that there is no single document anywhere that quotes him saying sucha thing... go figure. If you are willing to believe a line from a play who am I to change your mind...

I have read the source as to where you ( I believe  you may have )  copied and pasted your previous info on -> http://tektonics.org...peleox.html I could be wrong, but it looks to me that was the source you were using.. as you had not posted the link, not that it matters I could find it easy enough... From reading all though that entire source, I figured that there is no evidence that this was the first and ONLY place that line came from ..He doesn't mention the word myth, but uses fable instead..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 January 2013 - 06:47 PM.

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#194    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

I simply pointed out that God is alive and well, while those that have tried so heartily to destroy him within the human spirit and mind, have passed on... Their words may live on a little longer, but that too shall pass.

As for the rest, you can certainly speak your mind, it doesn't change the fact that the world as we know it is going to Sht on a rocket. I wonder who you will blame (since God isn't in the picture of our oh so very modern and developed society) when it finally does?

I will blame humans. It's always been human's, using god as a cover-up for their killings and saying "god does it, so can I, god told me to". I can't blame god for deeds of humans because the way I see it, he was never there but his name was used for fearmongering and thus terrible actions were committed and inadvertently were allowed.

God is alive and well in the minds of those who believe in him, for those who do not, he is dead and at the end of the day it's all personal belief and no one will change that no matter how loud they shout for their cause be it for or against God.

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#195    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

No you need the fear of God to be good, but you need the love of God to truly change.

Your "objective Moral values" are BS. If they were objective, everyone would share them, yet you have millions of people all over the globe who spit on your moral values, because theirs are "SUPERIOR" according to their point of view. Moral values without a scale to wheigh them are as useless as a one legged man in a azz kicking contest.

Human Moral values are not "OBJECTIVE", as a matter of fact they are just the opposite. What is evil today, was considered good in the past, and maybe a few years from now, it will be the new fad again, and it will be "good". Change societies, peoples values will change as well. What may acceptable for the Chinese may be reprehensible to you, what may be perfectly acceptable to you, may be unacceptable to someone else.

God is the only true scale to wheigh your values on, drop him and you have nothing...

They aren't my Objective Moral Values, they are yours. Perhaps you got that part mixed up. Objective means they are absolute and handed down by God. I'm not referring to human moral values because as you have said and as I have said in previous posts, they can and will continue to change but Objective Moral Values never change and you should know that being a believer.

As for needing the fear of God to be good, thank you for saying that, it's all I needed to hear. I'll refer you to Einstein now.
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Edited by Sean93, 02 January 2013 - 06:58 PM.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”




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