Cradle of civilization-Is it Dwarka

[Harsh86_Patel]

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1

Mahabharata describes a city like this called Dwarka which got submergeg somewhere around 3000 BC with the death of Krishna.

There were many malicious attempts of discrediting the finds at this ancient site but most of the initial attacks have been nullified by the evidence.

We have actually stumbled over an ancient civilization contemporary with Gobekli tepe and a predecessor of the Indus Valley Civilization/ or maybe even the progenitor of the same going back to 13000 B.P..

The above link is a detailed list of all the site related material with photographs and dating results (though i don't trust these dating techniques much).

[Nefer-Ankhe]

I am well adjusted to the theory, that if writing is taken as a prerequisite for civilization, the earliest 'cradle' of civilization would be early dynastic Egypt and Sumer.

Interestingly enough, it is evident that a majority of the first, thriving and 'cradling' civilizations, were situated near the Mediterranean e.g. Egypt, Sumer, Mesopotamia, Phoenician, Macedonia, etc. and etc...

[The_Spartan]

No it is not!!

ANCIENT DWARKA : STUDY BASEDON RECENTUNDERWATER ARCHAEOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS by A.S. Gaur, Sundaresh and Sila Tripat - from Migration & Diffusion, Vol. 6, Issue Number 21, 2005

References from Proper Academia is more relevant than a Fringe rainblow chaser like Hancock.

The concentration of the dressed stone blocks and structures are observed only at one location opposite to Gomati river mouth, and at no other locations in the area.

It is therefore inferred that the constructional activity was limited only to this area and the port town (jetty) was not covering the large area. Anchors found beyond these structures suggest that the boats were anchored away from these construction sites. Based on extensive, systematic underwater scanning of the area and specially absence of any pottery or other artefact even after airlift operations / underwater excavation at several places during last few years,

present exploration do not suggest that they belong to some habitation site, they rather appear to be the remains of a jetty.

The studies of surrounding archaeological sites indicate that the submerged structure may not be as old as suggested earlier.

However, the date of these structures may be still a matter of debate. A stone block with Gujarati script, found from the area indicates a later date for the stone structures.

Recent discoveries of stone anchors from all over the coasts of Indian Ocean suggest that Dwarka anchors may be related to Indo-Arab trade between 8th century and 15th century AD. However the date of stone anchors is subject to revision in the light of their association with some archaeological sites.

A large number of stone anchors from Dwarka waters indicate that Dwarka was one of the most active ports in the past. Explorations and excavations in Okhamandal area have brought to light two protohistoric (Harappan Period) sites at Nageshwar and Bet Dwarka .so far and few historical period sites such as at Dwarka, Bet Dwarka, Dhrasanbel, Positra and Pindara. Other modern villages probably came into existence during medieval period. The findings suggest that Okhamandal area attracted the seafarers and settlers from the very beginning of the civilization in India and continued till today, perhaps due to the richness of the varieties of shells, fishes, conducive climate and safe harbour

Thoughts???

[Harsh86_Patel]

No it is not!!

ANCIENT DWARKA : STUDY BASEDON RECENTUNDERWATER ARCHAEOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS by A.S. Gaur, Sundaresh and Sila Tripat - from Migration & Diffusion, Vol. 6, Issue Number 21, 2005

References from Proper Academia is more relevant than a Fringe rainblow chaser like Hancock.

Thoughts???

It is contested that is the Actual Dwarka near Bet-Dwarka (present day city of dwarka) or in the gulf of cambay. Any ways the scriptures speak of a Dwarka approximately 154 km wide.

The link you have given is in refference to the under water ruins near bet-dwarka.

The find that is being talked about is in Gulf of Khambat.

There has been no scripts yet found there. Scuba diving is not possible because the waters are very perillious.

You are confusing reports with another site near modern day Dwarka with the one reported in the Article i posted.

[Harsh86_Patel]

No it is not!!

ANCIENT DWARKA : STUDY BASEDON RECENTUNDERWATER ARCHAEOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS by A.S. Gaur, Sundaresh and Sila Tripat - from Migration & Diffusion, Vol. 6, Issue Number 21, 2005

References from Proper Academia is more relevant than a Fringe rainblow chaser like Hancock.

Thoughts???

Professor Badrinath is a senior scientist of NIOT and he is the one who stumbled on this find when they were doing marine pollution studies.This is a relatively newer site. The article posted on Graham Hancocks site is an article written by this well respected senior scientist and not some fringe looney.

Don't be so hasty Spartan before confusing the two seperate sites.

[Harsh86_Patel]

In May 2001, India's Union Minister for Human Resource Development, Science and Technology division, Murli Manohar Joshi, announced that the ruins of an ancient civilization had been discovered off the coast of Gujarat, in the Gulf of Khambhat. The site was discovered by NIOT while they performed routine pollution studies using sonar, and was described as an area of regularly spaced geometric structures. It is located 20 km from the Gujarat coast, spans 9 km, and can be found at a depth of 30–40 meters. In his announcement, Joshi represented the site as an urban settlement that pre-dates the Indus Valley Civilization.^[2]Further descriptions of the site by Joshi describe it as containing regularly spaced dwellings, a granary, a bath, a citadel, and a drainage system.^[3]

[TheSearcher]

Found this rather interesting article from an Indian paper :

Questionable claims

Archaeologists debunk the claim that underwater structures in the Gulf of Khambat point to the existence of a pre-Harappan civilisation.

Click the link

[Harsh86_Patel]

Found this rather interesting article from an Indian paper :

Questionable claims

Archaeologists debunk the claim that underwater structures in the Gulf of Khambat point to the existence of a pre-Harappan civilisation.

Click the link

http://www.frontline...07/19070940.htm

Archeologists are jealous that they were skipped.

A link in the same newspaper "Frontline" regarding the debate.

CLICK the link and see how the debunking is stupid and malicious.

Also please read the description of the topic where it is mentioned that "malicious attempts were made to discredit the find"

Also please read the article linked at the start.Here it is for you again:

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1

Badrinarayan is not a fringe looney, he is a repsected senior scientist of NIOT.

P.S.-->Evaluate the evidence for yourself in the above link as a lot of it is presented,oh i forgot you might have to run to your Big Brother to ask him if this find is legitimate.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[Harsh86_Patel]

Just for some clarifications, the first few comments on this topic will be misleading for those who really would like to follow the actual topic.

1.Badrinarayan is a well respected senior scientist in NIOT and the author of the article posted in the Topic, also the man responsible for the find.

2.Bet-Dwarka (modern day Dwarka) and the find in the Gulf of Khambat are two different finds.This article is in regard to the later as mentioned in the topic.

3.There were malicious attempts to discredit the find by some pseudosecular leftists in India and a jealous archeological community elsewhere but considering the detailed nature of all the evidence and the report filed by the NIOT team, most of these attempts have been falsified.(an example of such a malicious attempt has been posted by the searcher)

4.There is a lot of evidence and reports in the article tagged with the topic so everybody is welcome to evaluate it themselves.No need to believe hearsay from others, read it understand it and question it yourself before believeing it, directly from the horses mouth i.e Badrinarayan.

[The_Spartan]

recently, during drilling works, in an onshore field, we found some bits of fossilized wood, in remarkable shape.

Can i lay claim to have found a city here??

I can also lay claim that we dug up some shale bits that looked curved, i could claim them to be pottery too.

Murali Manohar Joshi isnt an archaeologist or a scientist but a goddamn politician, who was looking for mileage only, not anything else.

Proferssor badrinath, isnt fallible. His claims have been reviewed by his peers and ahve been found wanting and hence his claims are not accepted.

Geez, its a dead donkey from last decade and you harsh, must be seriously deluded to keeping on beating it, hoping it will move a bit more down the same path.

[Harsh86_Patel]

recently, during drilling works, in an onshore field, we found some bits of fossilized wood, in remarkable shape.

Can i lay claim to have found a city here??

I can also lay claim that we dug up some shale bits that looked curved, i could claim them to be pottery too.

Murali Manohar Joshi isnt an archaeologist or a scientist but a goddamn politician, who was looking for mileage only, not anything else.

Proferssor badrinath, isnt fallible. His claims have been reviewed by his peers and ahve been found wanting and hence his claims are not accepted.

Geez, its a dead donkey from last decade and you harsh, must be seriously deluded to keeping on beating it, hoping it will move a bit more down the same path.

Did you use side scan radar/sonar to verify the structure if you encountered any?

Did the structure have a foundation ?

Did you find semi precious stones which were drilled?

Did you find fired pottery shards?

Did you find human remains?

[Harsh86_Patel]

Since some people commenting here have not read the link in the first post, i am posting excerpts for those who are intrested.

Excerpts from the link:

1.

The methodology adopted was novel and different, wherein advanced marine technologies and most modern scientific applications of various disciplines were put to best use. The traditional but conservative archaeologists found it hard to accept that a major discovery could have been made by hitherto unapplied, unheard of techniques. Some observed and understood the importance of the discovery and came out in open support. Initially when the sidescan sonar images of underwater structures were shown, some called it a magic of computer software. When hundreds of artifacts were collected and shown, they opined that it could have been transported by the ancient river! Again detailed scientific studies were undertaken to prove that the artifacts are insitu. The criticism has driven us to adopt most modern technologies and scientific methodologies available in the world which have completely substantiated our findings and the results were published as research papers in reputed international journals. Now several authors are quoting the Gulf of Cambay work as a standard and a bench mark methodology for modern marine archaeological surveys and investigations. The discovery has clearly established the possibility of ancient civilizations that were submerged due to flooding by rising sea waters, after the last ice age.

2.

Usage of variety of artifacts, metallic objects, many types of potteries, construction of huge structures, etc. could not have happened overnight. So obviously there was a major missing link between the ancient hunter gatherer group of people and ‘Harappan’ civilization. In India, there were many Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic stone-age cultures. But none of them have any remote resemblance of the type of civilization found in the Harappan sites. It is possible that the missing link between the two is either under cover or has been submerged due to major sea level rise caused by melting of ice-sheets. It is a well established fact that during the Last Glacial Maxima (ice-age) the seas all over the world have shrunk and the sea level around 18000 years BP was about 130m below the present day sea level. So, it is logical to look for such submerged civilization near areas surrounding the present day Indian coastal areas especially along the palaeo channel of various rivers.

3.

In a similar marine survey, in a Coastal Research Ship during 1999-2000 when the author was the Chief Scientist, several unusual frames of Side Scan Sonar images were encountered. These had square and rectangular features in an arranged geometric fashion which are not expected in the marine domain. Such features are unlikely to be due to natural marine geological processes. This made the author suspect that human workmanship must have been involved here. The surveys were followed up by the author in the following years and a couple of palaeo channels of old rivers were discovered (Fig. 3 &4) in the middle of the Cambay area under 20-40m water depths, at a distance of about 20 kms from the present day coast.

4.' Few of the techniques used to profile the underwater ruins'

The combined effect of these conditions makes this part of the country unfit for diving and underwater operations and operating underwater videography impossible. Hence, only instruments operated on principle of sound, like sonar equipments and magnetic equipments could work here. This includes the Side Scan Sonar, Sub-bottom Profiler, Multibeam ecosounder, apart from marine magneto-meter.

5.

Sonar uses sound waves to produce images of the seafloor. The hard areas reflect more energy and are seen as dark shades, whereas softer areas do not reflect energy as well and are represented by lighter shades. This “Backscatter” is absent behind objects or features that rise above the seafloor, and are represented as white shadows in the sonar image. The dimensions of shadows are used to infer the size of the objects. The system used was a digital one which provides high resolution sonar images of the seafloor through advanced digital technology in 100 and 400 kHz frequency. The unit is connected to a Differencial Global Positioning System (DGPS) for the accurate position of the survey vessel and in turn that of the objects.

6.

When these were sampled, it was seen that just below a thin marine sediment cover of few centimeters, river alluvium and pebbles typical of terrestrial river sediments, below which typical river conglomerates were observed at depth. Such evidence clearly indicated that the area presently under sea, was originally dry land over which rivers were flowing. Due to different factors, they got submerged and now lie beneath the sea. The sonar images showed regular geometric patterns in one palaeo channel over a length of 9km in the sea about 20km west of Hazira coastal area. Associated with this on either side of the palaeo channel , basement like features in a grid pattern were observed at a water depth of 20-40m. These resemble an urban habitation site wherein, in the basement now at the bottom of the sea, pit like structures are seen. Another palaeo channel over 9.2km was detected off Suvali coastal area. Here also similar features were observed. In general the basement like features were located in a linear east-west direction on either side of the palaeo channel. It is seen that these features are 5x4m size on the eastern side whereas the westernmost part had dimensions of 16 x 15m. The habitation sites are all seen to be laid in a strict grid like pattern (Fig.5) indicating a good sense of town planning by the ancients.

7.

Apart from the regular sites of habitation, the Side Scan Sonar picked up images of several big structures. Some of these structures are as follows :

There is a rectangular (41m x25m) shaped depression, wherein one can sea steps gradually going down to reach a depth of about 7m (Fig.7). Surrounding this depression there is a wall like projection on all sites. One could observe an inlet and outlet and also a separate enclosure. This looks like a tank or bathing facility now occurring below 40m of sea water. It occurs near the western periphery of the town. It resembles the “Great Bath” that is found in the ruins of “Mohonjadaro” and “Harappa”, where also these occur on the western side of the township. There are two divisions in the tank, which may represent separate enclosures for men and women or for socially higher and lower categories of people. There are two openings probably for inlet and exit of water to keep the water in the tank fresh and clean.

8.

Sonar image in Fig.9 picked up a major dilapidated structure measuring 190m x 85m with spaces separated by what looks like collapsed walls. In front of it, on the bottom side there are several basements of rectangular shaped 2.5 to 3.5m x 6m structures, resembling minor dwellings. It could be an ancient granary for the township probably with dwelling place nearby, for the workers. In the nearby areas some fossilized food grains have been collected. In many of the Harappan sites the granary is a regular feature.

The image in Fig.10 is that of a basement of a buried settlement and it measures 74m x 48m. It has regular square, rectangular and arch shapes. The darker portions are the elevated or standout features. These indicate that there are still some constructed portions standing up partly. To the north of the structure also, a few square and rectangular shaped basements are visible.

A buried structural basement is depicted in Fig.11. The main structure measures 40m x 19m with wall-like dark features rising to 2-3m above the seabed. A series of step-like features are seen approaching the structure from the right side. To one corner of the main structure a 11m x 7m rectangular depression looking like a small tank or pond is observed.

9.Sub Bottom Profiler surveys

Sub-bottom profiler surveys, instead of reflecting sound waves from the seabed like side scan sonar, penetrate the seabed. The waves travel beneath the seabed in different formations in different speeds and the instrument collects the reflection data over selected frequencies. It provides good depth information on geological features apart from delineating any suspected buried anthropogenic structures.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.12 is below the 200m x 45m Citadel like structure. The standout features were picked up at regular intervals and appear to be the basement and foundations of the structure. It is observed that the foundations have been dug up to 5-6m in the soil over which broad column like features have been constructed, probably to take the load of the huge structure above.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.13 is below the buried settlement of 74 x 48m structure. Here also man made foundations like column can be clearly seen emerging from below the seabed and occur as standout features. Here, the foundations have been dug up to 3-4 m deep in the soil. These types of planning and method of construction by ancients clearly reveal that they had a very good knowledge of civil and structural engineering, wherein broader and deeper foundations were provided for bigger and heavier structures and thinner and shallow foundations for comparatively smaller structures. Likewise almost all the structures including the dwelling sites indicate a good amount of planning and design, taking into consideration the structural aspects.

10."Magnetic surveys"

Magnetic surveys were carried out by deploying a high resolution Marine Ceisium vapour Magnetometer. The survey was for observing magnetic signature occurring as anamolies of subsurface magnetic bodies of the area. The instrument was capable of sensing upto 0.001 nT at 1 sample rate. The values here were corrected for diurnal variation so as to remove the temporal variation in the earth’s magnetic field. The corrected magnetic field value is a result of the marine magnetic components :- regional geological features are very deep seated in origin and have depth persistence whereas one should look for very shallow and near seabed anaomolies that do not extend in depth. Several shallow near surface anomalies were picked up ranging in depth from 1m below surface to as much as 50m. The deep seated anomalies are atleast below 400m from the seabed surface. The near surface anomalies in general are covered by top sediments and are likely to be archaeological sites which are to be examined and explored later. Due to these surveys a vast area has now acquired importance for archaeological purposes – including areas that were earlier not picked up by sidescan images. As such these surveys enhance the area of archaeological interest. Obviously this was an extensive civilization, the remains and ruins of which have since been covered by shifting shoals, sandwaves, tectonism etc., which are very common features in the Gulf of Cambay.

11.

Sampling : In order to substantiate the findings detailed sampling was carried out. Since the sea condition was very rough and the water turbid and brown, sampling was carried out in areas where side scan images show excellent results. The samples were collected by utilizing a grab sampler, dredger, gravity corer and vibro corer. Large numbers of samples were carefully collected, systematically numbered and properly preserved. The artifacts collected included a variety of pottery pieces, Mesolithic stone tools, a few Paleolithic macro stone tools, beads made of semiprecious stones, brick pieces, hearth material, wattle and daub structure materials, corals, perfectly holed stones,, fossilized human remains and human teeth. Fig.16 has three potsherd pieces. These are unfired and normally sun-dried, made of clay and of great antiquity. On the other side of the figure a cross like object and some figurines are seen. Fig.17 shows the shape of deer’s head and to the right a well turned ornamental piece with a straight hole in the center. How the ancients were able to make them in stone is still an enigma.

In Fig.18 there are four very important objects. First, one can observe a fossilized jaw bone (mandible) with a natural tooth kept in front. Next to it is a part of the carbonized wooden log. This was obtained from the top stratigraphic colomn at a depth about 30 to 40cm below the seabed and it was sent for dating. In the left corner there are rolled objects and long linear beads which when strung together forms a necklace. In the right hand bottom of the figure linear beads made of stone are there with holes in the middle.

12. Please see page 4 of the link for pictures.

Since some persons have expressed doubts about the pottery pieces, a thorough scientific study was made involving the pottery pieces to establish their authenticity. To determine the properties of various material including pottery, many samples were subjected to X-Ray diffraction (XRD) analysis. Since the materials that constitute pottery etc are clays and heterogeneous mixures of a variety of materials, these were accordingly analysed. Every area has a special fingerprint pattern in the clay which can be recognized in X-Ray diffraction (XRD). The above analysis was carried out in Deccan College, Pune Maharashtra state, India,by using an advanced instrument which gave excellent results. The conclusions are that the pattern of pottery pieces corresponds very well with the locally available clay of gulf of Cambay. The mineral patterns of habitational floor, wattle and daub and land materials (alluvial deposit) are comparable. The patterns of fired clay, floor birck piece, vitrified clay, compare very well. All these indicate that they are genuine artifacts, made from locally available material and are insitu. It fully confirms the presence of archaeological sites. The findings indicate that the pottery was produced locally with levigated clay, fired uniformly at about 700^oC. From the presence of calcite in clays and pottery arid to semi-arid environmental conditions prior to the submergence of the site could be deduced. Calcritised alluvial deposits indicate the existence of ancient rivers which once flowed in the submerged regions of Gulf of Cambay.

13.

Coming to microliothic tools a variety of classic collections were made. These include Thumb nail scraper (Fig.19) to skin the small animals (Fig.20), obliquely truncated fluted core made of red corundum apart from borers and points (Fig.21). Usage of Corundum is something unique as it is the second hardest material known after diamond as per the Mohrs scale of hardness. The red and blue transparent varieties of corundum are the gem stones Ruby and Sapphire.. This is the first reported usage of corundum as microlithic tool in India and maybe in the world. Other tools include a microlithic blade made of chert and quartz (Fig.22) for cutting purposes, a microlithic side scraper (Fig.23), and a microlithic tool point with a serrated edge (Fig.24). Apart from these, pieces of hearth material have been collected (Fig.25). These were used for firing and heating and hence are very good for dating purposes. At places pieces of light weight, hollow circle-like materials have been collected (Fig.26). Probably these may be slag pieces, cinder after extraction of metal, and the ancients might have the knowledge of some metallurgy. Pottery pieces of various types have been collected. These include a broken bowl (Fig.27), coarse red-ware (Fig.28), pottery pieces embedded in mud walls (Fig.29), slow wheel turned pottery pieces (Fig.30), pieces of jar-lid (Fig.31), pottery piece with some cord impression (Fig.32) and a very ancient fragment of pottery, possibly amongst the oldest so far collected anywhere anywhere in the world. (Fig.33)

14. Dating techniques used on the collected samples:

Dating of samples : Most of the structures that were discovered in the Gulf of Cambay had many similarities to the CITADEL, GREAT BATH and grid-iron pattern habitation sites grannery, etc. of the Harappan civilization. But many of the artifacts and typology were very different and distinctive and with the presence of so many micro tools appeared to be much older than the Harappan. In order to establish the credibility and age of the civilization it was essential to date different objects and artifacts to establish the period of the Cambay civilization. There are many types of dating of archaeological artifacts like carbon dating, Thermoluminesence, OSL, AMS, Dendrochronoly archaeomagnetism, Electron Spin Resonence dating, Pottasium-Argon dating, Cation Ratio dating, etc. In all about 23 numbers datable objects were selected covering both the palaeochannels. From the samples obtained from the marine archaeological sites it was clear that the following methods will be most suitable and a fairly accurate age determination can be obtained from them. These are ¹⁴C radiocarbon dating, radio carbon dating by Accelerator Mass Spectrometer, Thermoluminescence and Optically stimulated luminescence.

15.

In the Gulf of Cambay a variety of microlithic tools have been obtained in continuation of late palaeolithic tools. The presence of highly evolved experimental pottery from 13000 BP, organized living, sedentary well planned habitation, advanced sanitary and town planning activities in the southern metropolis indicates that it had developed to be a established civilization from about 13000 BP. Already there were evidences for control of fire, making pottery etc. from about 16840 BP. The southern metropolis so far has provided datable objects up to 8500 BP. The well developed northern metropolis has dates of civilization from about 7506 BP. In this one should take into consideration the ideas given by Graham Hancock who also postulated that several cultures in near coastal areas have been flooded and submerged by rising sea level caused by melting of icecap subsequent to the last iceage. The inundation maps prepared by Dr.Glen Milne of Durham University, England clearly shows that the Gulf of cambay area prior to 7600 BP was mostly land and after 6900 BP it is mostly submerged. This type of rise in sea level is very much supported by the work of Dr.P.K.Banerjee pertaining to southeast coast of Indi, work of Sahidul Islam and Tooly in the Bay of Bengal in Bangladesh and Sen and Banerji’s work near Calcutta.

The area is highly prone to severe seismicity. In the past 500 years several earthquakes have shaken area, including the major +8 magnitude Richter scale event on 26.1.2001. On 16.1.1819 an 8.3 magnitude event devastated several areas nearby. It is seen that these quakes cause lot of subsidence at places and elevation at other places.

In the Gulf of Cambay itself various surveys have picked up fault zones and earthquake affected areas with throws upto as much as 30m (elevation and depression). The Gulf of Cambay was formed by a major rift. In order to understand the phenomenon and paleo-seismic activity, NIOT, commissioned Dr.Rajendran of CESS, Trivandram to carry out Paleo-seismic studies in the area surrounding Gulf of Cambay. His path-breaking work of identifying paleo-seismic events and dating them with OSL and also dating nearby Organic material has given excellent evidence to support the findings. He could detect the presence of sand blow layers caused due to old earthquakes as well as new ones. His work in peripheral land areas of the Gulf of Cambay like Kathana, Lotal and Motibaur gave evidences of major earthquakes in the Cambay areas in the following period (1) 2780 ± 150 years BP, (2) 3983 ± 150 BP and (3) 7540 ± 130 BP. Herein lies the evidence of the end of the Gulf of Cambay civilization. In the old major event about 7600 or near about the southern metropolis appear to have been thrown down by faulting and the nearby sea appear to have inundated it. Because of this the people appear to have proceeded north in the elevation higher than the sea level and established the 2^ndor northern metropolis. This also got affected by faulting due to earth quakes around 4000 BP and destroyed by the 2780 ± 150 BP EQ, by down throwing the metropolis and sea transgressed the area to completely submerge it.

16.Context of the find with the younger harrapan towns:

The third aspect is to consider what happened when the first and second metropolis got submerged. It is interesting to note that there are about 500 Harappan and pre-harappan settlements in Gujarat of which about 258 are on the peripheral areas of Gulf of Cambay. All of them are younger than the Gulf of Cambay metropolis (southern). To the immediate west of the Gulf of Cambay on the Saurashtra coast is the well known pre-Harappan and Harappan archaeological site of Padri. It has been established by the Deccan College researchers, that the river Chatranji which is now flowing east into the Gulf of Cambay, originally flowed west but was tilted towards the east by large-scale structural changes. By connecting it to the southern palaeo channel and extending it, it is seen that it goes to Prabhaspatten in the Arabian sea, and Prabhaspatten is a well known pre-harappan archaeological site mentioned in the Mahabharata epic. To the east the Palaeochannel is seen to be an extension of the present day river Tapi. Obviously the river Tapi was flowing right up to Prabhaspattan on the Arabian sea prior to the drifting and formation of the Gulf of Cambay. It now falls into the Gulf of Cambay instead of the Arabian sea. The ancients after the catastrophe and submergence in the Gulf of Cambay appear to have spread out all over Gujarat and then to the surrounding areas to establish a continuing and evolving civilization of Harappan type.

So, from the foregoing it is very evident the prehistoric civilization that matured and developed in the present day Gulf of Cambay was the forerunner and model to the subsequent advanced Harrapan civilization known to history. This wonderful twin prehistoric metropolis of Cambay lasted from about 13000 BP to about 3000 BP making it the most ancient and largest city civilization not only in Asia but in the entire world. It is seen to be at least 7500 years older than the oldest Mesopotamian city civilization. However strong evidence supports the presence of humans from at least 31000 BP who were evolving and developing and formed a great hitherto unknown civilization that were submerged by the flood, giving credence to local and global flood myths.

[The_Spartan]

Did you use side scan radar/sonar to verify the structure if you encountered any?

Did the structure have a foundation ?

Did you find semi precious stones which were drilled?

Did you find fired pottery shards?

Did you find human remains?

yeah we did sonar. by the way, are you qualified to oerate a snoar device or ahve you ever operated one???

We didnt find any foundations, but i could claim i found one, couldnt i?

yes as i told you we found some bits of shale that looks like pottery and i could claim that its pottery too.

human remains...guess i would have to settle for a cast of palster of paris, i could hide there too.

And..gentleman, when the findings of NIO and the declaration by Joshi has been refuted and debunked,. why are you still hangling on to a thread on the back of a dead donkey which you are still beating???????

[The_Spartan]

------

Sorry. could you provide the links to these claims from papers from NIO itself? not from Graham "Con"c***???

[Harsh86_Patel]

Mind you there are six pages of the article linked in the first post.

There are a lot of pictures and a detailed description of the process of reporting the find and the treatment of evidence.

Page 5 has been dedicated to dating procedure and answer few of the doubts raised by others.

Few people questioned the dredging technique and doubted whether the artifacts were local or transported by water currents/ the thermoluminescence study on the pottery clearly show that the material used to make the pottery was from the same surroundings where it was found.

[The_Spartan]

Mind you there are six pages of the article linked in the first post.

There are a lot of pictures and a detailed description of the process of reporting the find and the treatment of evidence.

Page 5 has been dedicated to dating procedure and answer few of the doubts raised by others.

Few people questioned the dredging technique and doubted whether the artifacts were local or transported by water currents/ the thermoluminescence study on the pottery clearly show that the material used to make the pottery was from the same surroundings where it was found.

All six pages from Graham Hancock!!

thats one thing.

If the six pages were from the NIO papers/archives, then thats another thing.

Capeesh??

[Harsh86_Patel]

yeah we did sonar. by the way, are you qualified to oerate a snoar device or ahve you ever operated one???

We didnt find any foundations, but i could claim i found one, couldnt i?

yes as i told you we found some bits of shale that looks like pottery and i could claim that its pottery too.

human remains...guess i would have to settle for a cast of palster of paris, i could hide there too.

And..gentleman, when the findings of NIO and the declaration by Joshi has been refuted and debunked,. why are you still hangling on to a thread on the back of a dead donkey which you are still beating???????

Where have they been refuted? who says that the refutation is convincing? Please refute based on sensible counter evidence once again since you claim this is a long debunked issue.

There are refutations for all sort of things available on the net....there are also refutations for well established things like Gravity, does it mean that after reading them you will stop believing in Gravity.

I know you can claim to have found things which are not actually there, but i dont think the wide variety of picture of side scan sonar that Badrinarayan a well repsected senior scientist has submitted have also been made up.

And since we are all aware now of how Spartan would forge evidence, doesn't mean Mr.Badrinarayan a well respected scientist with an impeccable record would do the same.

And no need to trust Mr.Badrinarayan, he has put quite a lot of evidence in his report, the evidence can be evaluated.He has also taken GPS readings of the finds so you can go to the same spot and use your own sonar to verify the find.

Murli Manohar Joshi had nothing to do with the find, he was just a minister. The NIOT team stumbled over it while doing surveys for marine pollution in that region.

Don't tell me i will have to copy paste pictures as well from the articles for you Spartan. Pictures of the Side scan sonars which are in the article which have been taken from the actual reports.

Ok will do it just the same:

There are many more in the article ,since you are experienced with sonar hope you can interpret them.

[The_Spartan]

linking images from Hancock's site wouldnt do, harsh.

provide the papers, joural references of NIO articles and link photographs from NIO,not from Hancock's website.

Hell, i too can put NIO Logo on any damn pic and claim its from NIO.

[Oniomancer]

3.There were malicious attempts to discredit the find by some pseudosecular leftists in India and a jealous archeological community elsewhere but considering the detailed nature of all the evidence and the report filed by the NIOT team, most of these attempts have been falsified.(an example of such a malicious attempt has been posted by the searcher)

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/harry-potter-vs-twilight/articles/84402/title/common-fallacies-various-fans-part-two

Did you use side scan radar/sonar to verify the structure if you encountered any?

Did the structure have a foundation ?

Did you find semi precious stones which were drilled?

Did you find fired pottery shards?

Did you find human remains?

Sidescan is good for detecting regular patterns but not for determining what those patterns are. As we've seen in other threads, nature is quite capable of producing considerable regularity.

The "stupid and malicious" debunkers make reasonable points about the possibility of legitimate artifacts being washed down, where said artifacts are in fact artificial. I'm curious about the semi-precious stones for one. Are there pictures available of same other than the ones at the top of the Frontline article? I ask because if those are them, they don't look particularly semi-precious, let alone man-made. They look rather like what are commonly called hagstones, which occur with some frequency in a variety of stones, including hard flint: http://m.pinterest.com/zip54653/hagstone/

Per the pottery, clay is sedimentary. Any that's at the bottom of the gulf had to come from somewhere else as a matter of course. (River, I say, river course, that is) It's not surprising then that any pottery potentially washed down from upstream should match the clay which needs must have done the same.

[stereologist]

Isn't thermoluminescence a dating techinque? It does not show whether or not a pot is composed of the materials from local sources. That is usually done using a petrographic method such as point counting on a thin section of pottery.

[Oniomancer]

Isn't thermoluminescence a dating techinque? It does not show whether or not a pot is composed of the materials from local sources. That is usually done using a petrographic method such as point counting on a thin section of pottery.

This. All the one article said was it's consistent with the type of local clay.

[stereologist]

I'm sorry. I should have quoted Harsh86_Patel

the thermoluminescence study on the pottery clearly show that the material used to make the pottery was from the same surroundings where it was found.

Thermoluminescence cannot show anything about the material other than I believe quartz grains were available for dating.

[Harte]

The "pottery" is merely dredged up casts of of tube worm tunnels from the ocean floor.

It's actually quite obvious, if you know what these casts look like.

Here's four from British Columbia:

The do look like pottery. Their creation is perfectly explained HERE.

Compare to Hancock's:

Please leave all penis jokes to me.

Harte

[The_Spartan]

A delta is one place you can find anything and everything washed down from the rivers, from ancient stuff to modern waste.

• Now, if some clay shards are washed down from the rivers to the delta, and the Scientists from the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) find these shards, do they investigate about the origin of these shards or do they make a conclusion that they could have been an ancient city/civilization right at the place where these shards have been found???
  
• How does dating a piece of wood lead the NIOT scientists to the conclusion that there was a city or culture or civilization at the spot where it was found? is all that data engraved on that damn piece of wood????
  
• Are NIOT scientists qualified to make such judgments without consulting with Archaeological survey of India???
  
• Why haven't the people who made these absurd claims not trying to refute when their claims and finds have been debunked by proper archaeologists?
  
• 
  

Please refer to this link to see what Asko Parpola and iravatham mahadevan, respected authorities on the Indus valley/Harappan civilization has to say about the finds.

Correction : I was using the Abbreviation NIO instead of NIOT erroneously

National Institute of Oceanography, Goa & National Institute of Ocean technology, vishakapattanam are two different entities in India.

Now coming back to the “artefacts” dredged from the sea floor (Note - the term here is dredged and not excavated or recovered, especially by Marine Archaeologists), here is a good anlaysis about the ‘artefacts’ at this link. Note that the person who authored the article is a trained archaeologist and not a fringe rainbow chaser like hancock.

I guess Harte has already posted the same content, but albeit from a different website.

[Harte]

I guess Harte has already posted the same content, but albeit from a different website.

Yes, the link I gave is to a page on Paul Heinrich's own website. His essay on it is also posted at Ma'at.

He's a Geologist.

His website used to be here. ("The Wild Side of Geoarchaeology" - maybe you've seen it.) If you click that link, you'll see he's moved. That other site - IIRC it's "the Epistles of Paul" or something like that - appears to be down.

Mr. Heinrich seems to be a pretty good guy. I emailed him, complaining that I no longer had access to his stuff. At that time, the other site was working but most of the links there were dead.

He emailed me back the same day, IIRC, and said he doesn't operate the site, but he'd be sure to contact the guy who does and try and get it fixed.

Maybe that's why it's down now.

I have no idea why that one page on his original site is still up???

Harte

Edited April 23, 2013 by Harte