254 replies to this topic

[and then]

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

The reality is that the crimes of Israel are effecting the law abiding peaceful Jewish, this is wrong as not all Jews support an Israeli state, its just like orthodox Jews resistant to Zionism predicted..the biggest threat to Jews today is Zionism. Its very similar to the way the world sees Islam due to radical and fundamentalism, not all Muslims are Jihadist, the vast majority are moderates who want nothing more than to raise a family and live in peace with the world



I don't think its quite so cut and dry as that, sure the countries of Europe are sick of the conflict but Israel gone....just what do you mean by that ?



We are already concerned, what people like you seem to forget is until the birth of Zionism in the early 1900's Jews, Muslims, Christians all lived happily and peacefully together in that region for centuries..so all this the world hates Jews just because they are Jews is BS...

http://www.jewsagain...onism/index.cfm

http://www.nkusa.org.../bham022603.cfm

http://rense.com/general38/nozion.htm

http://www.zionismbook.com/

some useful links on just how Orthodox Judaism sees Zionism,

Exactly.  And the presence of Jews there only became an issue when they wanted their own State.

WHO U KIDDIN, on 14 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

If the Zionists continue to label any legitimate criticism of its governmental policies as anti-Semitic it can only expect the world community to react negatively against it. To incessantly play the holocaust card, and attempt to blackmail the world into acceptance of its deadly apartheid policies concerning the Palestinians is simply immoral and has become totally unacceptable to most of the world. The Zionists' have created an explosive situation that is becoming extremely dangerous, and innocent Jews everywhere may suffer because of their intransigence.

Moderation and reason need to prevail, extremism is not the answer.

We see this differently, obviously.... what you see as blackmail I see as self defense of a homeland.  Since we'll never agree on that one it makes no sense to argue it but I do hope that those who are so firmly against the Jews in Israel realize the reality of their existence there.

ExpandMyMind, on 14 December 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

And people even have to wonder why Finkelstein wrote 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering'?

I've not read his books.  I only know him from seeing a doco on LinkTV and his story is an interesting one to be sure.  I have no doubt that chapter and verse can be ascribed to this issue.  People will take any advantage they feel they have to promote what they want in this world.  What truly amazes me about this whole issue is how vehement Israel's detractors are when there are so many other, much worse, indignities going forward in this world.  And they seem blind to what the possible outcome of this conflict can bring.  To believe that some day the Jews of Israel will be forced to just give up is irrational but many seem to have that as some sublime hope.  They never seem to even consider that just MAYBE they are wrong and that a war touching every life on this planet may ensue.  And when historians pieced it all together they would have to wonder why the world became so overtly moralistic in this ONE case - and no other?  Curious.

[Chooky88]

Just like Adolf and his Liebenstraum. Israeli Jews deserve the dark future awaiting them. I am no fan of Islam and have defended Jews all my life until now. The Palestine people deserve freedom. If they did this to me I'd fight them and be labelled a terrorist. So sad that Israel is making things worse. Evil b*******. We should stop allowing them to use the Holocaust as an excuse for bad behaviour and treat them like any other country that oppressed a minority.

[ExpandMyMind]

Chooky88, on 14 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Just like Adolf and his Liebenstraum. Israeli Jews deserve the dark future awaiting them.

How can you say this? Think about it rationally and in other situations. The people of a country often have no control over their 'elected' governments (there is really very little 'choice' when electing governments). What you have basically stated here is that the civilians of America deserved 9/11 due to the actions of their government, or Britain's people deserved the London bombings for the same reason. While, to an extent, a people is responsible for the government it elects, I do not believe that they can be directly targeted because of said government's actions. Not least of all because not all of those in a democracy will have actually voted for the government. I do, however, understand why a group would do such a thing (all they would see is the civilians of a country letting their government get away with (literal) murder|).

I mean, how many people thought that Tony Blair's Labour would be the most warring cabinet in the history of post WW2 Britain?

I do believe that the lines blur when a running party runs on the platform of destruction, then wins, but you still cannot hold a whole population responsible. This is what makes democracy so wonderful

The people of such a country do have a moral responsibility to challenge the authority of their government. But, unfortunately, most civilians cannot see past their own tiny little lives, and our governments are free to terrorise the helpless of the World, over and over again.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 14 December 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[ExpandMyMind]

and then, on 14 December 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

  What truly amazes me about this whole issue is how vehement Israel's detractors are when there are so many other, much worse, indignities going forward in this world.

See this is just a simple misunderstanding. I don't believe that Israel is the worst case of indignity (or anything else) going on. I know there are far worse situations throughout the World. The difference is that there isn't a whole team of online debaters trying to defend China's or Russia's or Sudan's or <insert dictatorship here>'s actions. Do you see? There is no 'debate' with the aforementioned nations, so why would they be brought up on a debate forum?

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 14 December 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

See this is just a simple misunderstanding. I don't believe that Israel is the worst case of indignity (or anything else) going on. I know there are far worse situations throughout the World. The difference is that there isn't a whole team of online debaters trying to defend China's or Russia's or Sudan's or <insert dictatorship here>'s actions. Do you see? There is no 'debate' with the aforementioned nations, so why would they be brought up on a debate forum?

I guess I understand when you put it that way.  There seems no limit to the numbers of people willing to vilify Israel's actions though.  Certainly they are not going out of their way to make friends in the world these days.  And I think there is some truth to Chooky 88's prediction of a dark future for Israel - but only in the near term.  They will pay for their wrongs - as will we all in our own ways.  But because they ARE the chosen, they will be held to a higher standard.  There are no winners in this conflict and no clean hands.

[Codeblind]

Luckily people aren't taken in by that type of rhetoric any more, always playing to be the victim,
You may think your talking to someone fresh off the boat...but I actually know the history of the conflict, the problem started after the British promised they wouldn't allow migrants to swell the 10% at best Jewish population that was living there at the time, which they lied..and soon the Jews from anywhere and everywhere were living in Palestine, changing the whole situation to the Jews being the majority...but the Brits had already promised Rothschild in 1917 that they would help them steal Palestine, so what happened was the UN who had been bullied by the US gave to the Jews of Europe Palestinian land that didn't belong to them, they had never lived on and in so doing punished the people who were living there for the crimes of Hitler, which brings us to this "we have always lived on the land" and "god promised us the land" BS, which is used to justify the theft further,

[Codeblind]

and then, on 14 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

But because they ARE the chosen,

we have a winner he went full retard

[and then]

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Luckily people aren't taken in by that type of rhetoric any more, always playing to be the victim,
You may think your talking to someone fresh off the boat...but I actually know the history of the conflict, the problem started after the British promised they wouldn't allow migrants to swell the 10% at best Jewish population that was living there at the time, which they lied..and soon the Jews from anywhere and everywhere were living in Palestine, changing the whole situation to the Jews being the majority...but the Brits had already promised Rothschild in 1917 that they would help them steal Palestine, so what happened was the UN who had been bullied by the US gave to the Jews of Europe Palestinian land that didn't belong to them, they had never lived on and in so doing punished the people who were living there for the crimes of Hitler, which brings us to this "we have always lived on the land" and "god promised us the land" BS, which is used to justify the theft further,

As for being "just off the boat" I never made any such assumption.  There are many here who are much greater scholars of the situation than I but that does not make their opinions of the right or wrong of this situation any more valid - it's still just an opinion.  Assigning blame for the conflict might be an enjoyable exercise for some but in the end what does it really benefit?  The whole world is going to suffer because of this fight and people are still throwing mud about who is to blame.  A better use of the time would be to look for realistic solutions while there is still time to do so.

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

we have a winner he went full retard

He also has learned to treat other members with a modicum of respect.

[ExpandMyMind]

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

the problem started after the British promised they wouldn't allow migrants to swell the 10% at best Jewish population that was living there at the time, which they lied..

In fairness, they did try very hard to stem the immigrant population. Even going as far as turning back full boats of refugees after WW2. This is part of the reason the British are hated by both sides.

[Codeblind]

I know its a youtube but its an interesting documentary. The Zionist Story

[and then]

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I know its a youtube but its an interesting documentary. The Zionist Story

If every word of this doco were acceded to and no question raised about the validity of any of it - what difference does it make?  Today Israel exists.  They will never be displaced unless they are defeated by force of arms.  For that to happen they would have to be deserted by the US and they STILL would have within their power to essentially take the world with them when they went.  So my question is this - Is it worth risking such a catastrophe instead of simply making some other provision for the people of Palestine who were kicked off their land?  If one does not believe that Israel would use their nukes in revenge for being destroyed as a nation I ask this - if you knew that to lose a war with your neighbors would mean seeing your old people and children literally slaughtered -would you simply put up your hands and ask for mercy?  I think this is the reality they face there.  I think that the majority of the countries of the world are beginning to align themselves against Israel and the outcome is going to be horrible but it seems to be unstoppable.  The only way to keep it from happening is for Israel to simply give in to their enemies and this they will never do.  
How would you solve the dilemma, Codeblind?

[Black Red Devil]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 14 December 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

<sup>Israel foreign minister risks wrath of the West with appeasement claim

_{Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has risked further damaging relations with the country's Western allies by likening their vows of support to Anglo-French appeasement of Nazi Germany in the 1930s and the subsequent failure to stop the Holocaust.}</sup>

In the latest in a series of belligerent statements about European criticism of Israeli plans for Jewish settlements, Mr Lieberman told a conference in Herzliya that international guarantees of support for Israel resembled the approach of Britain and France towards Czechoslovakia before its dismemberment by Hitler in the run up to the Second World War...

Read more:
http://www.telegraph...ment-claim.html

With Lieberman around, there's no need for Arab propagandists.
Every time he opens his mouth he offends all of Israel's allies, and then the Zionists have the nerve to ask "Why are we so hated?"

Problem solved. Lieberman's gone.
Israeli foreign minister quits after indictment

This could be a blessing in disguise for the normal people of Israel and Palestine who want peace.

This guy was the leader of the ultra nationalist right wing party Yisrael Beiteinu (Our Home is Israel) which is going into a coalition with Netanyau's Likud party.  Polls gave them high chances of winning the January elections with a large number of seats in the Knesset.

Lieberman, went to China early in the year as the foreign Minister to try to convince the Chinese to side with Israel if and when they decided to attack Iran.  With this guy around war in the ME would have been a certainty.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 15 December 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[and then]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 15 December 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Problem solved. Lieberman's gone.
Israeli foreign minister quits after indictment

This could be a blessing in disguise for the normal people of Israel and Palestine who want peace.

This guy was the leader of the ultra nationalist right wing party Yisrael Beiteinu (Our Home is Israel) which is going into a coalition with Netanyau's Likud party.  Polls gave them high chances of winning the January elections with a large number of seats in the Knesset.

Lieberman, went to China early in the year as the foreign Minister to try to convince the Chinese to side with Israel if and when they decided to attack Iran.  With this guy around war in the ME would have been a certainty.

He led the party but he had a constituency that hasn't gone anywhere.  The guy was a bulldozer and my guess is that Netanyahu is glad he's out of the way.  But to think he played that much a role overall may not prove true.  Ultimately it is Netanyahu that leads.  The Netanyahu that - in spite of his warlike rhetoric - has not attacked Iran and who refrained from going into Gaza even when he had perfect cover to do so.

[Black Red Devil]

and then, on 15 December 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

He led the party but he had a constituency that hasn't gone anywhere.  The guy was a bulldozer and my guess is that Netanyahu is glad he's out of the way.  But to think he played that much a role overall may not prove true.  Ultimately it is Netanyahu that leads.  The Netanyahu that - in spite of his warlike rhetoric - has not attacked Iran and who refrained from going into Gaza even when he had perfect cover to do so.

So, are you saying Lieberman forced his way into the coalition?

[Yamato]

Codeblind, on 14 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I know its a youtube but its an interesting documentary. The Zionist Story

I posted this for discussion earlier this year.   While the thread had many replies, the content of the video itself was largely ignored.