175 replies to this topic

[Sky Scanner]

psyche101, on 17 October 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Yet the European Court of Rights had no time for him as well? Bush has no pull there.

He threatened to commit suicide if he went to an American Jail. That had more to do with the stay of extradition. Because he made the threat, the authorities are now responsible for keeping him alive. His mother stated that his suicide was certain, which contravenes the extradition act. If he does go to America, and he does take his life (as if) then they would be responsible, and are not allowed to take that gamble.

There was a lot more going on then just that, the home secretary could have made this decision ages ago and ended this, the reason it was held off was to get Abu Hamza and those other odd balls sent to the US, then do what the British people and this current government have wanted for a long, and that is to enact a part of the treaty whereby Briitsh Courts now decide if a British Citizens stands trial here, not a foreign government. And this has been a no-brainer for a long time, if an International drugs smuggler, people trafficker, etc are operating from a british soil, it doesn't matter where their cargo ends up, the crime is committed from these shores, so it's tried under our law and in our courts. McKinnon case was a perfect example of this too, the offence may have ended up on US soil, but it was committed here, so our courts should deal with it. Now we have a more even playing field with extradition, which is how it should have been from day one.

Edited by The Sky Scanner, 17 October 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[psyche101]

The Sky Scanner, on 17 October 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

There was a lot more going on then just that, the home secretary could have made this decision ages ago and ended this, the reason it was held off was to get Abu Hamza and those other odd balls sent to the US, then do what the British people and this current government have wanted for a long, and that is to enact a part of the treaty whereby Briitsh Courts now decide if a British Citizens stands trial here, not a foreign government. And this has been a no-brainer for a long time, if an International drugs smuggler, people trafficker, etc are operating from a british soil, it doesn't matter where their cargo ends up, the crime is committed from these shores, so it's tried under our law and in our courts. McKinnon case was a perfect example of this too, the offence may have ended up on US soil, but it was committed here, so our courts should deal with it. Now we have a more even playing field with extradition, which is how it should have been from day one.

Gidday Mate

Of course!

Makes good sense. I wonder how America would use this as a precedent with the Soldier fellow that shot up that innocent village a few months back? They wanted him brought back to America for trial, but the crime was committed in the middle east, and they wanted to punish him there.

Food for thought! Thanks for the comment, got me thinking about it a bit more! That would make something of an irrefutable precedent for the British Courts?

Cheers.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 17 October 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Gidday Mate

Of course!

Makes good sense. I wonder how America would use this as a precedent with the Soldier fellow that shot up that innocent village a few months back? They wanted him brought back to America for trial, but the crime was committed in the middle east, and they wanted to punish him there.

Food for thought! Thanks for the comment, got me thinking about it a bit more! That would make something of an irrefutable precedent for the British Courts?

In general, the US tries to prevent prosecution of its own personnel through SOFA agreements and similar treaties and legal devices, which is also why it never joined the International Criminal Court.  

The US government often thinks that local standards of justice are often not exactly up to the level of Western legal norms, and having seen much of the world I know that's true.  Of course, when it also rejects the ICC it lays itself open to the charge of hypocrisy and double standards, since it often fails to prosecute its own on war crimes charges--or some lower level people get a slap on the wrist.

As for Gary McKinnon, I have signed petitions on his behalf and even written to the Justice Department, as have other people I know.  I never doubted that he somehow stumbled onto some real information about UFOs, but I think this should be made public in any case.

[zoser]

psyche101, on 17 October 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

From the link you provided:




He is a crook and a petty thief. This is what happens when one breaks the law.
You UFO buffs ought to hate him. He broke and entered, and then when he was caught, obviously he thought "how do I get support, the UFO nuts will fall for it, and there is heaps of them" and any geek knows this. If he really did have the sensitive information he claims to have, so would his ISP, and a dozen servers all over the world, and as the black cards roll up at your doorstep, you would hit "send" and email the information all over the world to every major media outlet with the touch of a button.

I think one has to be somewhat gullible to swallow his story. I doubt he ever was going to America, I think he is just an example to other would be hackers. It's not all that hard to be perfectly honest.

I agree with the sentiment; however what has caused a lot of anger in the UK is the signing away of citizen's rights and allowing another nation to 'abduct' people here without due process.

He should be tried in the UK as a citizen of the UK, and that is what has caused the anger.  

Then there is the ridiculous claims about damages running into hundreds of thousands of dollars that has never been substantiated.  

It all leads to suspicion and conspiracy theories regarding the possibility that they want him because of what he saw.  That is the price the US have to pay for decades of secrecy and denial.

So criminal hacker yes.  Under the circumstances however and because of how the US authorities have mishandled the case, and behaved over the years regarding the ET issue they don't deserve to get Gary.  Much better that the US uses it's money to correct it's appalling security problems and learn from it's mistakes.  A little more truth and openness wouldn't go amiss either.

The consequences of it not doing so particularly with China training hackers by the thousands is simply terrifying.

Edited by zoser, 17 October 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 17 October 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

In general, the US tries to prevent prosecution of its own personnel through SOFA agreements and similar treaties and legal devices, which is also why it never joined the International Criminal Court.  

The US government often thinks that local standards of justice are often not exactly up to the level of Western legal norms, and having seen much of the world I know that's true.  Of course, when it also rejects the ICC it lays itself open to the charge of hypocrisy and double standards, since it often fails to prosecute its own on war crimes charges--or some lower level people get a slap on the wrist.

In the case of that soldier, they might well be right. Sharia law is just barbarism. However considering his crime, it might be justified. I would like to have seen him back in the states, purely because I think he should be closely looked at. If they can figure out what it is that snaps, we might be able to prevent such atrocities.

TheMacGuffin, on 17 October 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

As for Gary McKinnon, I have signed petitions on his behalf and even written to the Justice Department, as have other people I know.  I never doubted that he somehow stumbled onto some real information about UFOs, but I think this should be made public in any case.

I can say for sure he did not. It would have been too easy for a decent computer admin to recover his tracks via caches.
Not only that, but I bet rags to riches that he was not the only one. When Windows terminal services is set up how it was, it has no password. You just type Administrator and hit enter. I bet there are hundreds of businesses set up like this even now. He was the only one stupid enough to leave notes all over the computers. And I think if he was really gathering secret information, the last thing you would do is leave notes of bravado all over the palace. He thought he was a big time hacker, but he was pretty ordinary. Windows has a way of making people think they are in control of something they are not.

[psyche101]

zoser, on 17 October 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

I agree with the sentiment; however what has caused a lot of anger in the UK is the signing away of citizen's rights and allowing another nation to 'abduct' people here without due process.

He should be tried in the UK as a citizen of the UK, and that is what has caused the anger.  

Then there is the ridiculous claims about damages running into hundreds of thousands of dollars that has never been substantiated.  

It all leads to suspicion and conspiracy theories regarding the possibility that they want him because of what he saw.  That is the price the US have to pay for decades of secrecy and denial.

So criminal hacker yes.  Under the circumstances however and because of how the US authorities have mishandled the case, and behaved over the years regarding the ET issue they don't deserve to get Gary.  Much better that the US uses it's money to correct it's appalling security problems and learn from it's mistakes.  A little more truth and openness wouldn't go amiss either.

The consequences of it not doing so particularly with China training hackers by the thousands is simply terrifying.

I disagree with the costs. Although the costs should be mitigated as they would have to have had to carry out works that should already be done. But when something like this happens, the bosses get together and implement a solution so it will not happen again, and IT solutions are rarely cheap. Had it not been McKinnon, it could have been a real threat, and who knows how many had a look before McKinnon did. So I think many were upset that was not mitigated as well, but I think the object was to put the fear of God into any other would be hackers.

And Guantanamo does seem harsh, but I always felt that was merely a threat, and it does seem to be.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 18 October 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I can say for sure he did not. It would have been too easy for a decent computer admin to recover his tracks via caches.
Not only that, but I bet rags to riches that he was not the only one. When Windows terminal services is set up how it was, it has no password. You just type Administrator and hit enter. I bet there are hundreds of businesses set up like this even now. He was the only one stupid enough to leave notes all over the computers. And I think if he was really gathering secret information, the last thing you would do is leave notes of bravado all over the palace. He thought he was a big time hacker, but he was pretty ordinary. Windows has a way of making people think they are in control of something they are not.

I never doubted that he was telling the truth, or that many people were incredibly lax about computer security--so much so that he just broke into their systems without too much trouble.  Maybe he just got lucky, but it certainly upset and embarrassed a lot of people.

He was looking for UFO information and he got it.  I'm not at all surprised to find that NASA alters or destroys UFO pictures because people have been saying that for decades.  They have never given a straight answer on one single UFO case yet, but have been caught in lie after lie after lie.

Nor did it shock me to learn that we had a secret space program with very advanced technology since the military space missions existed even before NASA and people like Ben Rich and his colleagues said 20 years ago that such advanced technology already existed.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 18 October 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

I disagree with the costs. Although the costs should be mitigated as they would have to have had to carry out works that should already be done. But when something like this happens, the bosses get together and implement a solution so it will not happen again, and IT solutions are rarely cheap. Had it not been McKinnon, it could have been a real threat, and who knows how many had a look before McKinnon did. So I think many were upset that was not mitigated as well, but I think the object was to put the fear of God into any other would be hackers.

And Guantanamo does seem harsh, but I always felt that was merely a threat, and it does seem to be.

If others have done it and gotten real UFO information, which I repeat should not be kept secret, then they have not "shared" it with the world.

[synchronomy]

TheMacGuffin, on 18 October 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

If others have done it and gotten real UFO information, which I repeat should not be kept secret, then they have not "shared" it with the world.

As you already know, but for the benefit of others; the subject of ET's would be (definately is?) the most closely guarded topic involving highly compartmentalized, pyramidal layers, divided further by a spectrum of clearance levels in both government and private sector organizations.  This does not prove that contact with ET's is, or has been going on.  This level of security would likely exist even if no contact had ever been established at this point.  For many reasons, it is in the interest of the "ones in the know" to have the global public believe that "they" may be privy to technologies far advanced from any current or potential "enemies of the state"
Keep 'em guessing.  Typical cold war mentality still exists and will never change.

There's not a chance in hell that any hacker is going to find a single file with anything more than weather balloons or swamp gas.

That's my 2 cents,.

[Tesla II]

TheMacGuffin, on 17 October 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Bush was going to have him extradited to the US and sentence him to life imprisonment in some dark dungeon.  Make no mistake about that.

Britain resisted this because the sentence would have been excessive, but this case was never a big priority for Obama.  That was the difference that finally got the guy off the hook.

I thought that such people get recruted to army...

Edit : If he actualy releases any evidence than i'll back him up, otherwise plain and empty words i would have to agree with psyche...
Boons work...

Edited by Nuke_em, 18 October 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[stevemagegod]

Nuke_em, on 18 October 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I thought that such people get recruted to army...

Edit : If he actualy releases any evidence than i'll back him up, otherwise plain and empty words i would have to agree with psyche...
Boons work...

He did say he found a list of Non Terrestial Officers but what kills his crediblitty is that he says he was to high on dope to remember anything.(He said it himself)

Edited by stevemagegod, 18 October 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

synchronomy, on 18 October 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

As you already know, but for the benefit of others; the subject of ET's would be (definately is?) the most closely guarded topic involving highly compartmentalized, pyramidal layers, divided further by a spectrum of clearance levels in both government and private sector organizations.  This does not prove that contact with ET's is, or has been going on.  This level of security would likely exist even if no contact had ever been established at this point.  For many reasons, it is in the interest of the "ones in the know" to have the global public believe that "they" may be privy to technologies far advanced from any current or potential "enemies of the state"
Keep 'em guessing.

The fact that some of them have crashed here (or been shot down) and that contacts with various groups of ETs have been made since at least the 1950s, all of that is the most highly classified subject in the government.

Once in a while some of it leaks out, even in the 1950s by people like Lord Mountbatten.  I have mentioned some of these limited disclosures on here.

[TheMacGuffin]

Nuke_em, on 18 October 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I thought that such people get recruted to army...

Or they may be in the army already--or something like that.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 18 October 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

I never doubted that he was telling the truth, or that many people were incredibly lax about computer security--so much so that he just broke into their systems without too much trouble.  Maybe he just got lucky, but it certainly upset and embarrassed a lot of people.

He was looking for UFO information and he got it.  I'm not at all surprised to find that NASA alters or destroys UFO pictures because people have been saying that for decades.  They have never given a straight answer on one single UFO case yet, but have been caught in lie after lie after lie.

Nor did it shock me to learn that we had a secret space program with very advanced technology since the military space missions existed even before NASA and people like Ben Rich and his colleagues said 20 years ago that such advanced technology already existed.

I know that you are wrong about him telling the truth, because with regards to his IT methods he was not.

He got nothing. I do not know how to make it clearer that there is not a snowballs chance in hell that he is telling the truth. Even I could have hacked his ISP's and got the alleged vital information. And he had been doing it for months before he was caught. And if he had anything, half the planet would also be privy to his finds. ISP'a are hacked all the time. If there were the pictures he claimed then someone would have them who is not government. Most hackers are kids flexing their newly found IT skills during their summer break. Mainly DOS attacks for cheap thrill because getting inside is risky. As McKinnon found out. His incompetence and his false bravado, which came down around his ankles when caught, is how he got caught. I am amazed he got away with it for as many weeks as he did, but that was probably held up via negotiations with Scotland Yard before they could send the cars around on behalf of the US embassy.

Sorry McGuffin, he pulled the wool over your eyes. I know you believe him, but I know that he got nothing. The only lies being told in this case were being told by McKinnon. To be honest I am surprised that you would put morals aside because he told a tall tale. A cook is a crook is a crook. You will never see what he claimed to download because he got nothing. But if he had something, I assure you that you and I would not be having this conversation right now.
His fantasy was to hack the Government and have them think he was some sort of super geek and hire him, like the movie war games. Didn't turn out like he imagined. I still think you lot should be pissed at him, as it is obvious that he thinks UFO proponents are gullible. And I am not the only one who gets that impression from his statements.

As I said earlier, if anyone was to uncover something secret in this fashion, Julian Assange would be your best bet by a long shot. McKinnon is overconfident of his abilities and no more than an Assange wannabe. From an IT perspective, he tells a laughable tale. If only I could translate what I know from an IT perspective into UFO speak, you would wash your hands of him. I remember people talking about this awesome hacker Mendax on hacker boards back in like 2002. The good old days of FreeBSD 4.x series.

All he did was tell a tale full of holes. May I ask, what aspect of his tale could you possibly find convincing? Is it just because they intended to make an example of him?

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 18 October 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

If others have done it and gotten real UFO information, which I repeat should not be kept secret, then they have not "shared" it with the world.

Pretty much exactly my point. And anyone worth an ounce of salt in the IT world will tell you that McKinnions so called hacking was child's play. If there was something to share, Wikileaks would have done exactly that already. Assange is what McKinnon hoped to be, but never came close.