161 replies to this topic

[Karlis]

In another thread, eightbits wrote, "In the Koran, at. 4: 157-158, Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus. It is an extraordinary passage".

Please discuss the above. For further information here are two links that may possibly be useful:
http://quran.com/4/157-158 and >this site: Fatwa No: 87468

[odas]

Before we start explaining I want to say thanks to all the members who recently discuss Islam on other threads. Unlike in the past it is very cultivated with good questions and positiv critisizm.
Good job ppl, keep it up.

[Yamato]

Karlis, on 25 June 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

In another thread, eightbits wrote, "In the Koran, at. 4: 157-158, Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus. It is an extraordinary passage".

Please discuss the above. For further information here are two links that may possibly be useful:
http://quran.com/4/157-158 and >this site: Fatwa No: 87468

It turns out the Romans crucified Jesus (remembering the criticism of Mel Gibson's 'Passion'), but either way it doesn't settle with the Qu'ran because Jesus didn't die according to Islam.  That's what's extraordinary to me about it.  By either Jewish rejection of Jesus as the Messiah or Islam's twist on Jesus's martyrdom, it opens the door for something more to come (Talmud and Qu'ran).  We can learn more about the Jewish attitude about their role in killing Christ in Jewish scripture, and they were motivated to take their share of ownership in ridding the world of the Messiah...err that fraud.  The distinction here is to say that they (Romans at the behest of the Jews) nailed the wrong guy to the Cross.  Looking at the strange names they came up with for Jesus in the Talmud, it may seem to the casual observer that Muhammad's reference is plausible.

[Lion6969]

Yeah the distinction is that the Quran suggests that the Jews rejected the messiah and already had a track record of killing their prophets. The Quran says that they think they killed Jesus, but it's all conjecture it also claims that the Christians believe wrongly that he died on the cross, and that too is their conjecture. It then corrects the mistakes (Islamic perspective), suggesting that while they thought they will crucify Jesus, Allah replaced him with one of their own and was made to resemble Jesus, while the messiah himself ascended to heaven still to taste death and return as the second coming, verifying Islam, and leading the ummah.

[eight bits]

Greetings, Lion

It would be very helpful if you were to expand on this:

Quote

... the Jews rejected the messiah and already had a track record of killing their prophets.

In the Islamic conception, what other prophets had the Jews killed?

Also, as the OP notes, 4: 157-8 first came up in a different thread. In that thread, another poster (Knight of the Shadows, I think) cited the rejection of Mary and the infant, which is noted in the immediately preceding verse. Your point, then, comes immedaitely before that.

For the ease of anybody who wants to post in this thread, here is the version I used

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

which includes information about the translation. Although there doesn't seem to be any controversy about what the passage 4: 157-8 says, here are the verses, in the version I used, starting from 4: 155:

[4.155] Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.

[4.156] And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[Knight Of Shadows]

eight bits, on 26 June 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Greetings, Lion

It would be very helpful if you were to expand on this:



In the Islamic conception, what other prophets had the Jews killed?

Also, as the OP notes, 4: 157-8 first came up in a different thread. In that thread, another poster (Knight of the Shadows, I think) cited the rejection of Mary and the infant, which is noted in the immediately preceding verse. Your point, then, comes immedaitely before that.

For the ease of anybody who wants to post in this thread, here is the version I used

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

which includes information about the translation. Although there doesn't seem to be any controversy about what the passage 4: 157-8 says, here are the verses, in the version I used, starting from 4: 155:

[4.155] Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.

[4.156] And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

ummm can you point me out what i said coz i have bad memory
and what kind of rejection ? am bit lost here

[eight bits]

Hi, Knight

Your're correct, and I was mistaken. It was Uncle Pockets who made the point about Mary. You were in the thread addressing a different issue with another poster. I am sorry that I remembered that incorrectly.

Anyway, here's the other thread

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=228847

The action that inspired Karlis to start this new thread seems to begin at my post 60 in the old thread. Mr Walker asked me about it in post 61, and I cited 4: 157-158 in post 64. Uncle Pockets then brought up the material in verse 156, which concerns Mary, in his post 66.

My apologies for describing your role in that thread incorrectly.

[Knight Of Shadows]

nah it's quiet fine man i'll take look at it

so we're talking about wheather god deceived people about christ death ?
sorry but am just trying to get the hang of what we are debating here
am still oblivious to it

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 26 June 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[eight bits]

Hi, again

I hope Karlis, the OP, comes back to tell us what aspect of the passage he was hoping to discuss. In the old thread, the main idea was an illustration about the different concepts of God that exist in the Abrahamic religions. Accidentally, I also seemed to have touched upon a point favored by that thread's OP, that there was hostility against Christians and Jews in the Koran.

Until Karlis comes back, I suppose we can all discuss anything about it any of us want to discuss here.

[Knight Of Shadows]

eight bits, on 26 June 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Hi, again

I hope Karlis, the OP, comes back to tell us what aspect of the passage he was hoping to discuss. In the old thread, the main idea was an illustration about the different concepts of God that exist in the Abrahamic religions. Accidentally, I also seemed to have touched upon a point favored by that thread's OP, that there was hostility against Christians and Jews in the Koran.

Until Karlis comes back, I suppose we can all discuss anything about it any of us want to discuss here.

right .. i'll prepear tea till he comes back want cup ?

[eight bits]

Sounds like a plan. I'll bring some tea cakes .

[Karlis]

Hi everyone -- in the OP I provide two Muslim sources that, "Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus".

Please discuss the thoughts presented by the Muslim sources on this subject. As I see it, convincing presentations will probably be posted by posters who are familiar with this aspect.

And thanks; I'll have milk in my tea, with no sugar.
Karlis

[Knight Of Shadows]

Karlis, on 26 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Hi everyone -- in the OP I provide two Muslim sources that, "Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus".

Please discuss the thoughts presented by the Muslim sources on this subject. As I see it, convincing presentations will probably be posted by posters who are familiar with this aspect.

And thanks; I'll have milk in my tea, with no sugar.
Karlis

poison or no poison ?
i still don't get it .. though .. what are we suppose to debate
the muslim prospective goes that jesus was not dead
the story goes that he already knew that one of his close followers will sell him out
and i think there is something in islam that back it up .. hadith i think i'll need to look it more

however upon entering the room and before they enter god have risen jesus to him
and made one that look just like jesus " and it's perferably believed that the one who sold him out is the one who got crucified "
and .. thats it ?

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 26 June 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[eight bits]

There is also a Christian "substitution" heresy. The canonical synoptic Gospels all report that an otherwise unknown man, Simon of Cyrene (eastern Libya today), was compelled to carry Jesus' cross by the Romans, because Jesus, who had been severely flogged, was unable to do so. (John disagrees, and specifically says that Jesus carried his own cross, 19: 17).

Irenaeus (Against Heresies I, 24, 4) reports that Basilides of Alexandria, a leading Second Century Gnostic Christian, taught that this Simon was transfigured to resemble Jesus, and that it was Simon, not Jesus, who was crucified.

http://www.newadvent...ers/0103124.htm

A similar story appears in the Gnostic Second Treatise of the Great Seth,  a book found at Nag Hammadi, although the text is unclear about who ended up being crucified.

http://www.gnosis.or...hamm/2seth.html

It is a curiosity that in the earliest Gospel, Mark, the modren canonical text does not name Jesus from the appearance of Simon at 15: 21 until the final agony of Jesus at 15: 34. In between, all that happens, happens to "he" or "him."

Ancient Alexandria was a hotbed of early Christian doctrinal struggle, where even the non-Gnostics weren't always all that orthodox, and Alexandria is especially associated with a variety of Marks. It is interesting to think, then, that Basilides might have come to his opinion by reading a Mark where Jesus' name doesn't appear again after Simon takes up his cross. Reasonable enough, in that case, for him to understand the Gospel as saying that Jesus wasn't killed.

And why might Simon go along with that without protest?

Mark 8: 34-35

He (Jesus) summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me..For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it."

Edited by eight bits, 26 June 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Uncle Pockets]

You are correct on my statement eight bits.

I am a bit confused to what exactly are we supposed to be discussing. The two links you provided seemed to sum it up well.