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Doggerland


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#466    Abramelin

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 10:02 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 28 May 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Nice summary. You have the basis of a decent book there Abe. It seems possible as an arctic home land like Thule or Hyperborea. An event of such magnitude would leave a significant mark on the mind of the survivors and I bet there were a lot. It makes a lot of sense that to build with stone would have become a priority if not to appease the god who wrought their destruction at least that their presence would be undisputable.

Check through this Phillip Coppens link of megalithic sites of Europe. Something a bit closer to the time frame may turn up. Mainland Europe wold have been an obvious destination but could they have made it as far as north Africa. Maybe they thought to get as far away as possible and some stayed closer others went further a field.

http://www.philipcop...m/articles.html


I hope you believe me, Jim, when I tell you that I have been seriously thinking of sending Jean Auel a link to this thread? I assume you know her books.

My english isn't perfect, but I think a writer like she is is able to write a 500 pages thick book about it.


And hey, I know Philip Coppens; I like the guy and his site... he has imagination, but he is also critical and skeptic.


#467    Abramelin

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 07:41 PM

Hah, if there will ever be a novel about Doggerland, the next pic would make a nice cover of the book:

Posted Image

I didn't create it, I got it from a site made by a bunch of British and Dutch surfers.

-

I remember I once said in this thread that the proven existence of Doggerland is in itself proof that all those socalled 'channeled' or other images/maps of ancient earth are crap because it never appears on those maps.

Well, I don't know how he knew about it, but Athanasius Kircher (17th century) - many will know him for his drawing of "Atlantis" - created several other maps, and one of his maps appears to depict Doggerland:

This is the map that most will know of:

Posted Image




But this another map by his hand:
Posted Image
PLATE XVII. A Conjectural Geography of the Translation of the Earth after the Deluge.
(From Arca NoŽ, Athanasius Kircher, 1665).


http://www.sacred-te...h/boe/boe15.htm


Yep, I know, he was convinced about a world-wide deluge, and just extended the coasts of most continents as areas that got flooded by Noah's Biblical Flood. But look at what he did with the North Sea; as far as I know, no bathymetric data about the North Sea (or maybe better: the Celtic Shelf) were available in the 17th century.

http://kircher.stanford.edu/gallery

http://www.jesuites....010/kircher.htm

http://en.wikipedia....anasius_Kircher

The second picture I posted is taken from his "Arca Noe".

And if you happen to be interested in the origin of the English language, then here is a nice site :

How old is English?

I guess is it based on Stephen Oppenheimer's theories.


A map about migrations from Doggerland from that site:

Posted Image

(the map is a bit wrong: the ancient Rhine and Thames joined, and ended up in what is now the Channel - Calais/Dover - , and not in the North Sea, as the picture wants us to believe.)

"When the ice melted completely ca.10000 years ago (at the beginning of the Holocene), and the sea level rose, all pre-Germanic people who had their territory in the North Sea were forced to go south, west and east: upon the modern coastal regions of the North Sea. Some of them settled in the east of Britain. The initial clans who came from different parts of south-Germany, each with their own dialect, eventually merged. This gave birth to a more mixed, slightly simplified language which would become known as coastal German or Ingweaoon German after the introduction of agriculture. The pre-Scandinavians largely remained on a northerly latitude. They settled in the Northeast of England and in the Midlands where they mixed with the pre-Germanic people. However, a strong Scandinavian influence subsisted. This mixed language with a strong Scandinavian impact will evolve much later in Scandi-proto-English.
The prediction here is that the clans deeper in Britain (Midlands) were less affected by this mixing of people and language and therefore should have a different dialect than the population near to the east coast. The Mercian dialect (=old English) corroborates this."



.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 June 2010 - 08:32 PM.


#468    Abramelin

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:50 PM

What is interesting is that Kircher - according to the other map by his hand - wasn't that convinced about the true location of "Atlantis".

His Atlantis map (the one with Atlantis located between the Americas and Europe/Africa) has been used by Atlantis believers for centuries, conveniently forgetting that he also had other 'ideas' or inspirations.

I think he just made it up, based on Plato's story.

But then I am left with the question where he got his info from about the Celtic Shelf.


#469    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:09 PM

I like the surfers picture. Is it the seven Pleiades below the north star?

Thanks for the sacred-texts link. Kirchers maps were cool also. He like Churchward may not be right all the time but they do bring ideas and research to the table. I'll have to look into him more.

The Basque connection is exciting too and as difficult as it is linguistic connections are valuable.

The people of Pan, absolutely classic.  :yes:

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#470    Abramelin

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:28 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 04 June 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

I like the surfers picture. Is it the seven Pleiades below the north star?

Thanks for the sacred-texts link. Kirchers maps were cool also. He like Churchward may not be right all the time but they do bring ideas and research to the table. I'll have to look into him more.

The Basque connection is exciting too and as difficult as it is linguistic connections are valuable.

The people of Pan, absolutely classic.  Posted Image


I don't know about the stars in the logo; to me it's just decoration: 3 stars at the left, 3 stars at the right.

"Like Churchward"?? No doubt Churchward copied Kircher's idea about Pan/Mu.


#471    Abramelin

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 10:29 PM

Churchward lied through his teeth (he was never able to show anything resembling evidence), Sitchin lied as much (he claimed to be a scholar, but no other scholars ever knew of him), Von Daniken lied the most (he even got jailed because of him being a fraud).

I have my own fantasies, I admit, and I have posted about it.

These guys had their own favorite fantasies.

The difference between me and these guys is this:   I admit I am having a fantasy, but these other guys guys pretend they know the 'truth' and want you to believe that their fantasy is the 'truth and nothing but the truth'.

Another difference: I am not out to get a hardon when someone believes my fantasies. But the Sitchin/Daniken/Charroux/Whoever do: they want you to believe in them and their theoris, they want you to take them seriously, and.......... lol........ they want your money.


#472    SlimJim22

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 11:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 June 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

Churchward lied through his teeth (he was never able to show anything resembling evidence), Sitchin lied as much (he claimed to be a scholar, but no other scholars ever knew of him), Von Daniken lied the most (he even got jailed because of him being a fraud).

I have my own fantasies, I admit, and I have posted about it.

These guys had their own favorite fantasies.

The difference between me and these guys is this:   I admit I am having a fantasy, but these other guys guys pretend they know the 'truth' and want you to believe that their fantasy is the 'truth and nothing but the truth'.

Another difference: I am not out to get a hardon when someone believes my fantasies. But the Sitchin/Daniken/Charroux/Whoever do: they want you to believe in them and their theoris, they want you to take them seriously, and.......... lol........ they want your money.


I agree in the cases of Sitchin et al but for me, I like Churchward because he got out there. He travelled and he tried to trace original sources. I don't care whether he was right or wrong but he did indulge his fantasy to the extreme and that is my kind of researcher but then again I am not an academic.  :)

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#473    Abramelin

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 01:10 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 05 June 2010 - 11:00 PM, said:

I agree in the cases of Sitchin et al but for me, I like Churchward because he got out there. He travelled and he tried to trace original sources. I don't care whether he was right or wrong but he did indulge his fantasy to the extreme and that is my kind of researcher but then again I am not an academic.  Posted Image


Von Daniken also travelled far and wide...

I'd really love to see those Naacal Tablets Churchward claims to have seen. And only he did.

Maybe I should announce I have read very rare mesolithic writings about Doggerland, stored in some old monastery, and when someone asks me about it, I will say I was the only outsider allowed to look at them. From then on I will create a myth which is based on these secret writings only I was allowed to see.

I then 'copy' and post those ancient glyphs or whatever, and you can bet they will resemble the Mas D'Azil and Glozel script/signs a lot.

Would you believe all that??

Blavatsky pulled that trick, Joseph Smith did, Churchward did......

EDIT:

I even forgot: I wouldn't be the first claiming to have read or even to be in the possession of some old manuscript about Doggerland... did you ever read the "Oera Linda Bo(o)k " ??

It's a proven hoax.

Here's the book online:

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/index.htm

In the 19th century, ascendant nationalism in Europe used local folklore and ancient legends to bolster a sense of identity. One curious example of this is the Oera Linda Book, a controversial manuscript, dated 1256, from the Frisian region of the Netherlands. The Oera Linda book is today conventionally agreed to be a forgery, written during the mid-19th century. This is based on the paper which the manuscript is written on, as well as internal and linguistic evidence.

Purporting to be an episodic chronicle of wars and migrations of the Frisian people, the Oera Linda Book describes events dated (very precisely) from 2194 BCE to 803 CE. The reference date is the submergence of 'Atland,' a lost land in the North Sea, which, according to the book, occurred in 2193 BCE. The book is peppered with descriptions of catastrophic earth changes, including volcanic eruptions, strange weather, and rapid sea level changes. This is intriguing because, even if a forgery, the Oera Linda Book predates the origin of the modern Atlantis craze, which began with Ignatius Donnelly's Atlantis, the Antediluvian World, published in 1882.

The Oera Linda Book also claims that Europe was ruled by a (mostly) peaceful, just matriarchy for most of its history, and that the Frisians invented writing. There is a dark side, too: parts of the Oera Linda Book have touches of bigotry and intolerance which will be galling to most modern readers. This mix of themes have led to a continued fascination with this text, regardless of its authenticity.


Posted Image

Posted Image

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Edited by Abramelin, 06 June 2010 - 01:34 PM.


#474    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 02:16 PM

<_< Just spent half an hour replying then lost the message.  :angry2: It's a good idea and other people have done far worse. As long as you admit it is a hoax at some point I see no ethical reason against in. Would be an interesting challenge and I have some ideas. Posting them in thread would spoil the hoax but PM me if you're interested.

The Oera Linden story gave me a little laugh but you never know it could have been copied from an earlier source and then claimed as a hoax but usually the simplest explantion is the correct one.  :mellow:

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#475    Alien Being

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 02:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 October 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:

I am particularly interested in this "Doggerland": it sunk beneath the waves (and even catastrophically), it was a large area of land, it happened around 8100 BP, and - contrary to what questionmark assumed - it was very probably much more populated than previously thought, and it must have been sort of a post-ice-age paradise (and again, not the barren tundra as was previously thought).

But I keep wondering about the fact that if all the above is true as scientists try to prove, then why are there no surviving myths about this event?

It could be that there are surviving myths about the submergence of Doggerland, but hidden away in cryptic descriptions.

So I'd like to ask people knowledgable about ancient Scandinavian and/or Celtic and/or Germanic mythology if there is indeed a myth/legend that says anything about land submerging beneath the waves.

--


Here's a documentary about the land that was once between England and Europe:

Britain's Drowned World (and why the hell do the Brittish claim this land as theirs??):

-1-
-2-
-3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIxZMjXe5Q

And from part 4 till till the end they talk about Doggerland, and in one of these parts a scientist even says that the inhabitants - seeing their country sink in the sea - must have wondered what they had done wrong to make the gods drown their land...

-4- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx9smho3a_E
-5- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6MLWBYI8xA
-6- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxgFx6GoC80
-7- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iLPcbez5Q0
-8- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSGqEgyk1_Y

Plato is not the only ancient source saying an advanced civilziation was lost in a day of catastrophy to the water. Irish myths have tales of a great flood too and says people did escape it some of which came to Ireland and Scotland. If you look at religion from a differant persepctive you also have tales of God using a great flood to wipe out the corrupt.

Edited by Alien Being, 06 June 2010 - 02:29 PM.


#476    Abramelin

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 03:06 PM

View PostAlien Being, on 06 June 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

Plato is not the only ancient source saying an advanced civilziation was lost in a day of catastrophy to the water. Irish myths have tales of a great flood too and says people did escape it some of which came to Ireland and Scotland. If you look at religion from a differant persepctive you also have tales of God using a great flood to wipe out the corrupt.


Well, as you quoted an ancient post of mine, you wil also know that I have mentioned those Irish legends (the Book of Invasions, Lebhar na Gabhala or something) and the Tuatha De Danann, and the Fomorians, quite a few times in this thread...

But we should not forget that it were Irish Christian monks who were the first to put these legends and myths onto paper.


#477    Abramelin

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 03:13 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 06 June 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

Posted Image Just spent half an hour replying then lost the message.  Posted Image It's a good idea and other people have done far worse. As long as you admit it is a hoax at some point I see no ethical reason against in. Would be an interesting challenge and I have some ideas. Posting them in thread would spoil the hoax but PM me if you're interested.

The Oera Linden story gave me a little laugh but you never know it could have been copied from an earlier source and then claimed as a hoax but usually the simplest explantion is the correct one.  Posted Image


Heh, I know how that feels, Jim: you think and write for half an hour, just to see your post get lost in the Electronic Beyond.

But why announce you are going to create a hoax? You could as well announce you're going to write a novel?

And yes, although any Dutch person will know, after reading the Oera Linda Book for just a few minutes, that 90 % is a hilarious joke, some points of the story are rather interesting.

Alas, the timing of the destruction of 'Atland' is many millennia off: Doggerland got finally destroyed around 6100 BC. It's possible some tiny parts stayed above sea level for centuries after that (like the Dogger Bank), but it would have been nothing more than mud plains.


#478    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 03:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:

Heh, I know how that feels, Jim: you think and write for half an hour, just to see your post get lost in the Electronic Beyond.

But why announce you are going to create a hoax? You could as well announce you're going to write a novel?

And yes, although any Dutch person will know, after reading the Oera Linda Book for just a few minutes, that 90 % is a hilarious joke, some points of the story are rather interesting.

Alas, the timing of the destruction of 'Atland' is many millennia off: Doggerland got finally destroyed around 6100 BC. It's possible some tiny parts stayed above sea level for centuries after that (like the Dogger Bank), but it would have been nothing more than mud plains.

Something that might interest you is Nabta Playa in the Sahara. There was a lot of activity in the area between 10,000bce and 6,000bce so it is comparable with Doggerland in time.

http://www.comp-arch...ndorfSAA98.html

So, in terms of distance it is a stretch but contact would not have been impossible although I admit fairly unlikely. Still they were using megaliths for calendars.

http://www.mazzaroth...aStonehenge.htm

Edited by SlimJim22, 06 June 2010 - 03:40 PM.

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#479    Abramelin

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 04:03 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 06 June 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

Something that might interest you is Nabta Playa in the Sahara. There was a lot of activity in the area between 10,000bce and 6,000bce so it is comparable with Doggerland in time.

http://www.comp-arch...ndorfSAA98.html

So, in terms of distance it is a stretch but contact would not have been impossible although I admit fairly unlikely. Still they were using megaliths for calendars.

http://www.mazzaroth...aStonehenge.htm

I know of Nabta Playa, I also know of Gobekli Tepe.

It's not impossible there was contact between the seafarers of Doggerland and these peoples, but there is absolutely nothing that indicates into that direction.

And what I have said here before, as soon as archeologists nowadays discover large stones (or holes) arranged in something vaguely resembling a circle, they immediately assume it was an astronomical calendar. There are zillions of stars, and so there will always be some constellations in the heavens above that appear to have a connection with the alignment of these standing stones.

edit:

Here's a stone circle in Brazil, only lots younger:

http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/4767717.stm

Posted Image
Posted Image


In May 2006, reports emerged of an "Amazon Stonehenge", found in the Amazon Basin, in Brazil. It is made up of 127 blocks of granite, each 3 metres (10 feet) high, standing upright in even circles in an open field, according to ABC News and Mongabay.com. According to MSNBC, some of the blocks are has high as 9 feet tall, and crown a grassy hilltop. Based on ceramic fragments found nearby, archaeologists believe this structure is between 500 and 2000 years old.

On the shortest day of the year in the northern hemisphere, December 21, the shadow of one of the blocks disappears when the sun is directly above it. It is this block's alignment with the December solstice that leads archaeologists to believe the site was once an astronomical observatory and that they may also be looking at the remnants of a sophisticated culture.

http://en.wikipedia....azon_Stonehenge


If a group of blind men erected a circle of standing stones, no doubt one of those stones would align with something celestial.

..... if you want to see a 'calendar', you will see a calendar...


It's nothing but a Pavlov's reflex.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 June 2010 - 04:24 PM.


#480    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 04:34 PM

Fair enough just thought ancient peoples would find use for knowing cycles for the purpose of farming or migrating. Someone went through a lot of effort to erect megaliths and while the calendar is just one function, for me it is the most likely. Either that or a quantum accelerator. Maybe just maybe there is some ritual function we haven't thought of but I am all out of ideas on that front.

I suppose the kind of stone plays a part, granite has unique vibrational properties but that is really stretching the conceivable. Maybe they were graves or prisoners were tied to the stones to make a sky burial.

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