607 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 13 February 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Who said it has to originate in Iberia?

That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

One of the main things I was following was megaliths, from the European Megalithic people, the earliest known are in Portugal:

Circa 5000 BC: Constructions in Portugal (Évora). Emergence of the Atlantic Neolithic period, the age of agriculture along the western shores of Europe during the sixth millennium B.C. culture of La Almagra near by, perhaps procedent from Africa.
Circa 4800 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Barnenez) and Poitou (Bougon).
Circa 4400 BC: Constructions in Malta (Skorba temples).
Circa 4000 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Carnac), Portugal (Lisbon), France (central and southern), Corsica, England and Wales.
Circa 3700 BC: Constructions in Ireland (Knockiveagh and elsewhere).
Circa 3600 BC: Constructions in England (Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester), and Malta (Ġgantija and Mnajdra temples).
Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain (Málaga and Guadiana), Ireland (south-west), France (Arles and the north), Sardinia, Sicily, Malta (and elsewhere in the Mediterranean), Belgium (north-east) and Germany (central and south-west).
Circa 3400 BC: Constructions in Ireland (Newgrange), Netherlands (north-east), Germany (northern and central) Sweden and Denmark.
Circa 3300 BC: Constructions in France (Carnac stones)
Circa 3200 BC: Constructions in Malta (Ħaġar Qim and Tarxien).
Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France (Saumur, Dordogne, Languedoc, Biscay, and the Mediterranean coast), Spain (Los Millares), Sicily, Belgium (Ardennes), and Orkney, as well as the first henges (circular earthworks) in Britain.
[edit] ChalcolithicCirca 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Le Menec, Kermario and elsewhere), Italy (Otranto), Sardinia, and Scotland (northeast), plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge). With the bell-beakers, the Neolithic period gave way to the Chalcolithic, the age of copper.
Circa 2400 BC: The Bell-beaker culture was dominant in Britain, and hundreds of smaller stone circles were built in the British Isles at this time.
[edit] Bronze AgeCirca 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Er Grah), Italy (Bari), Sardinia (northern), and Scotland (Callanish). The Chalcolithic period gave way to the Bronze Age in western and northern Europe.
Circa 1800 BC: Constructions in Italy (Giovinazzo).
Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal (Alter Pedroso and Mourela).
Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.
Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere come to an end during the general population upheaval known to ancient history as the Invasions of the Sea Peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith

The Invasion of the Sea Peoples seems to occur at the same time that the earliest Celts could have arrived in Cantabri or Celtica (by the Atlantic)...

[GGG guy]

It's been a while and in my absence, its good too see more on the Iberian Spain question. I've always thought that Iberians in Spain are the very same Caucasus Iberians. I'll add some text to that end. My quotes are from a book called Archaic England (AE) by Harold Bayley, pub - J.B. Lippincott Co. (Philadelphi) - Chapman & Hall LTD. (London), 1920.

(AE, after ~ p. 328) "On the Sierra de 'Elvira' near Granada used to stand Ilibiris whose coins are inscribed ILIBERI, ILBRS, ILIBERRIS, LIBER, ILBERNEN, ILBRNAKN, ILBREKIN, and these legends may be connoted with the famous Irish leprechaun, or Lubarkin whose figures less prominently in England as the Lubrican or Lubberkin. Sometimes the Irish knock off the 'holy' and refer simply to 'a little prechaun', but more usual form is Lubarkin: this most remarkable of the fairy tribe in Ireland is supposed to be peculiar to that island, but one would have once met him at Brecon, or Brychain at Brecknock, at Brichin in Forfarshrine, at Burchington in Kent, at Barking near London, and in many more directions. In connection with Iberia in the West there occur references to a giant Bergyon, who may be connoted with Burchun of the Asiatic Buratys. The religion of these Buratys was , said Bell, downright paganism of the grossest kind: he adds the information, 'they talk, indeed, of an Almighty and Good Being who created all things, whom they call Burchum; but see bewildered in obscure and fabulous notions concerning His nature and government'. Inquires may prove that these Burchum worshiping Buratys were of the Asiatic Iberian race which Strabo supposed were descendants of Western Iberi."

So I would claim (my Grand Global Genome theory) that the Buryans (Burjans as Arabic) are the same Siberian, Iberians (Caucasus), who went to Spain, and to India as the god Kubera, and this ties into the pygmy-leprechaun of England and Ireland. The Author here failed to mention Siberian god of mountains "Tengra", and Tengranism practiced by the shamans from here, nor the the factor that they should be the blacksmiths as well, who made the coins he refers to in this book, in my opinion, as they should be miners and metallugist by my approximations. The salt mime in Azerbaijan date to 5000 BC. Ringstone structures can also be found here. I would also claim them as Hyperboreans, and the Alboran, and Alborean Seas off the Spanish coastlines, and Balearic Isles. Unfortunately, the coins limit the timeline in Iberian Spain to about 400 BC, unless someone has an earlier date, and these coins are typified as Celtiberian in general, as well as some of the Celtiberian script on them. These folks would be of a "wolf-tribe" tamga, and some coins exhibit wolf, horses, and bulls. I'm aware of a Bora named mint in Spain regions. An unbridled horse on coins can mean "LIBERTY" as well. The author discusses this in the same book.

I think they are also of Bad Tibira in Sumer, and the city called Ur (dog) perhaps. I 'm also attempting to assimilate the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (the archers) into this Sibero-Ibero envelope. The biblical Abraham originates from Ur. Bad Tibira is the Sumerian "blacksmiths" location, and close to Ur. Temples related to Ur are called Ur Bar Ra (Urbarra) here. One should note that Bad Tibira received its ore from Mt. Arali in Africa, as one source within the old text, because the Sumerian lowlands didn't posses any good ore. Bad Tibira dates to ~3000BC and the Sumerian 2nd dynasty.

I agree with the megalith timeline referenced herein, and this is the same structures which I think can be a Hyperborean-Apollo type migrations, that also became one of the tribal builders of the megaliths. My study only traces Buryan-Burjan-Borean type tribes, however the Budin, Budini (Odin), named tribes are gaining more prominence as related, and does lead to a Buri-Bor-Odin-Thor relationships. I believe that the post Trojan War date is correct for most of my research concerning this Central Asian-European connection to actual text, but the megalithic structures certainly exhibits locational names that strongly suggests earlier settlements than the Iron Age time frames. Should be an earlier, more barbaric episode in Spain, and elsewhere. As Celts, my tribe is likely the Fir-Bolg, and/or the Eburones, around Belgium, or the Netherlands. I also believe the Norse orginate in the East Baltic, the became West Baltic later, that is Sweeden-Danish-Iceland Scandinavians. I see the Finnic-Saami regions and the Russian rivers as the earlier migration path, and to be higher probability. This connects Norse myths to Iberians of the Caucasus, and, also to Spain therefrom. Noah is from here too, Mt Ararat, or Georgia (al Burjan in Iranian myths).

Whether or not any of these people stayed in these locations as a DNA record today should be part of analysis, as in some cases, miners would extract ore to the extent ore would produce, and they could simply leave if the ore ran out. Some studies have mentioned only fragments of a settlements at all around some smaller ancient mined locations. I think the Phoenicians could be of this nature as they were seemingly "traders", not miners perhaps. I think the Hyperboreans and Phoenicians were early trading partners, so this could allow a miner-Sea People pathway to go west to Spain.

The god Kabeiros is on Spain's coins (Belearic Isles), on Ligurian coins (on the Genoa question), and on Phoenician coins. Also, on Thessaly coins (see Veria, Berea in Macedonia).

Thanks for the blog and I hope this brings some areas of interest to the table, GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 13 February 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

The Iberians are a mixed lot, it's hard to know exactly who they were, let alone what each tribes dna was imo. The language of the Basques is more what I think left the area, whether this includes Basques themself, I couldn't be sure, I'll admit that - they could have been Aquitani or other nearby extinct Basque language people, the genetics don't necessarily have to match up imo, many other people could have spoken the Basque language, as I said, the Aquitani did.

Note this also:
The Iberians were not a clearly defined culture, ethnic group or political entity. The name is instead a blanket term for a number of peoples belonging to a pre-Roman Iron Age culture inhabiting the eastern and southeastern Iberian peninsula and who have been historically identified as "Iberian". Although these peoples shared certain common features, they were not homogenous and they diverged widely in some respects.


An alternative theory states that they were part of the original inhabitants of Western Europe and the creators of or heirs to the area's extensive megalithic culture, a theory possibly supported by genetic studies. The Iberians would therefore be similar to the populations subdued by the Celts in the first millennium BC in Ireland, Britain and France.

Genetics does possibly support the theory they were creators (or heirs) to the areas extensive megalithic culture.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

The Iberians are a mixed lot, it's hard to know exactly who they were, let alone what each tribes dna was imo.

Through genetic studies, we do have a good idea as to what genetic lines were in play at various times in Europe and more specifically Iberia. And nothing points to a genetic origin of any line, specifically, that could be considered Portugese. Nor are the known lines in Iberia ancestral to other populations of the Mediterranean. Nor would the lines of the Basques, as mentioned prior, be ancestral to the Trojans.

Quote

Genetics does possibly support the theory they were creators (or heirs) to the areas extensive megalithic culture.

And therein lies the problem. Genetics does not commit itself, one way or the other, to the theory.

cormac

[keithisco]

The Puzzler, on 09 February 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Note the title is 2 questions.

I have been thinking about this for a long time now, it seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that ancient sailors from the Atlantic seaboard, (where Portugal now is, up to Basque country) who have a darker Mediterranean look, like the Spanish, usually dark brown/black eyes, curly dark hair etc, arrived in the Mediterranean and landed in Libya, Malta, Sicily, Crete and even on to Troy. Bringing in the male Earth bull, and that darker look they have than Northern Europeans.

I pointed out once a painting that showed a consistency in the dress of ancient Crete...


Portugese Ladies in Goa

The ladies have their breasts out, not only that, the black snake curl hair can also be seen. So, I reckon they look like Cretans for a start, and they bought in the Bull. I'm aware the bull can be found at early sites in Near East but I also think that a bull cult also developed in the East, that of a mother cow cult, not the male Earth bull. I also think the Lion motif may have come in with these European people. The Bull and Lion are seen all through the Paleolithic in Europe.

Then I was checking out the Basque language, because I like to look at languages and play 'lego linguistics', but I couldn't help but notice one word...

hiri `Town, city'. The word is ancient, and its earlier form *ili is attested in a number of ancient place names, the most famous being the mysterious Iliberris in Granada (modern Elvira); this is transparently *ili plus berri `new', but no one knows how a Basque place name could be found so far south.
http://www.buber.net...sque.words.html

Another guy who got panned badly did try to decipher Linear A into Basque, seems it was 'lego linguistics' too, but who knows really, could be something in it.

Anyway, the word above is hiri but an earlier form is ILI which means town or city... of course I then immediately thought of Ilium of the Iliad, always known as the CITY of Troy.
Nothing says this name cannot be Wilusa, which would just be a changed form of the true ILI sound for city/town. I could then move onto Iberia in the Caucasus, where Colchis and the River Phasis was.

ibai `River'. This is the most widespread word, though there exists also uhalde, ugalde, especially in the east; this is a compound of ur `water' and alde `side'. The word ibai itself appears to be a derivative of ibar `valley', but perhaps originally `water-meadow'. Curiously, perhaps, the great majority of river names in the Basque Country are of non-Basque origin, though an outstanding exception is the biggest river in the Basque heartland, the Ibaizabal, from ibai plus zabal `wide'.
http://www.buber.net...sque.words.html

I'll leave it at that for now, finding the word ILI as city/town was interesting though.

You must be very careful when trying to translate Vasco words to English. The word itself is characterised by the sentence and therefore can have many meanings. There is also absolutely no connection to Linear A.

The first recorded Basque Text is from the 16th Century (other than place names) so any linkage to Linear A is specious.

So could the Basque (Vasco) people  really be the Trojans? Highly unlikely because the Basque people did not organise themselves that way. Thay were fishers (no distinction between between male and female), they certainly traded Tin with Cornwall in England ( look at the common phonemes), and more importantly, look at their isolation from other languages.

I am fairly certain that during the Roman period they had almost no contact with Latin, that they kept their ancient trading roots with the south west of England, and both languages developed as isolates. IMO

[keithisco]

Just one more thing - the Basques are "lighter" in colouration that the rest of Spain, also much stockier. But.. the one defining trait is the high preponderance of O Rh Negative blood typing.

Edited by keithisco, 14 February 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[hetrodoxly]

cormac mac airt, on 13 February 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes  Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for  30 years or more.

[Goodnite]

I found this interesting article on the Basque people.
http://www.aoi.com.a...anderbasque.htm

[cormac mac airt]

hetrodoxly, on 14 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes  Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for  30 years or more.

Sykes book deals with England and Ireland and NOT an Iberian (whether Basque or Portugese) origin of any peoples of the Mediterranean. That there is a connection between a subgroup of R1b (namely R1b1a1a1b in Iberia and R1b1a1a1b4 in England and Ireland) has been confirmed, but R1b itself DID NOT originate in Iberia.

cormac

[hetrodoxly]

cormac mac airt, on 14 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Sykes book deals with England and Ireland and NOT an Iberian (whether Basque or Portugese) origin of any peoples of the Mediterranean. That there is a connection between a subgroup of R1b (namely R1b1a1a1b in Iberia and R1b1a1a1b4 in England and Ireland) has been confirmed, but R1b itself DID NOT originate in Iberia.

cormac

R1b originating Eurasia ? refuge in Iberia during the last glacial period, moving north following the retreating ice sheets.

[GGG guy]

the comments are interesting and I want to add some more images and names concerning the megaliths in Spain and Portugal. I would think that the Iberians predate the Celtic influences in both Spain and Portugal as a Buryan/Burjan related tribe, but that some Celts would be of these same ancestors of Northern territories, i.e. as Fir Bolg, Picts, and in Ireland, Scotland, and England as Druidic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxons after the Iron Age period. I want to address the periods before this, and megalith structures in these regions, and Copper and Bronze Ages as applicable.

In Portugal rgwew is the site called Evora (Ebora), Anta Grande do Zambujeiro. I'll attach an image of the rocks. I would suggest a relationship between Burjan and Bujeiro.

 Portugal, Evora, Anta Grande do Zambujeiro.jpg   74.73K   1 downloads

In Evora is also the ring stones called Cromeleque dos Almendres. I'll attach a picture.

 Portugal, Evora, Cromeleque dos Almendres1341.JPG   151.07K   1 downloads

Also in Evora, the Roman Temple called Yaburah. I would suggest Buryah comes from Buryan/Burjan. I'll attach a picture.

 Portudgal, Evora, RomanTemple of Evora or Yaburah.jpg   10.04K   1 downloads

I'll also attach two Ireland maps, and note the location called "The Burren" in Claire County Ireland. On one map note the spelling "Vellabori - ?, and I would suggest the Burren is Borean, and also Buryan/Burjan in origin, or Fir Bolg Picts as a Celtic form of these folks. Vellabori exhibits mining as well. I believe Fir Bolg means Fire Rock, or Firestone, and they are miners and blacksmiths. The oldest mines in Ireland are close to here on the south end of the Isle.

I'll attach a "Vellabori" location map for Ireland. I would suggest the "Bori" in this word in today called "the Burren", in Clair County, Ireland. The stones and location are part of  megalith's timeline herein posted.

 Ireland map tribes of 100 AD.gif   10.01K   1 downloads

I'm R1a as Burian surname, and Czech-Bohemian-American, but, there is a Czech-Burian story said to trace to about the 1200 cent AD on the origins in Cornwall Englad at St Buryan's church, and St. Buriana (Irish 5th cent.) said missionary name who brought the name here for this church.  Later, exilled by Normans to France, then later to Bohemia. Burians' as a name could readily be in Bohemia anyway, and I'm of West Bohemians, and Prague. My yDNA  R1a1 approximates my lineage in Central Europe at about 1500 BC, Russian Steppes (Ukrainian) around 3000 BC, and Caucasus at about 3-5,000 BC.  Would fit a Central Asian "Kurgan Culture" to some degree regionally.
I agree that yDNA is not mature to the degree we would like, but I see some ancient historical data I've personally worked on this tribe to conform as a 1st order approximation, and I can't argue with my own yDNA analysis, but one mist weight its relevance carefully. The locational factors as those I've attached can perhaps give us a better ethos verification on locations, I hope.

I use Buryan (Siberian, and Burjan (Arabic) as my primary base tribal name/s. I think this is proper, for now. You can see both of these variants in the locational names attached, and Borean=Burjan=Buryan. See if this is workable for megaliths too.

Comments welcome, GGG guy.

[cormac mac airt]

hetrodoxly, on 14 February 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Quote

R1b originating Eurasia?

Southwest Asia, actually

Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2012

Quote

Refuge in Iberia during the last glacial period, moving north following the retreating ice sheets.

Nope.

Quote

Contrary to this, for those lineages for which a post-glacial European recolonization from a Franco- Cantabrian refuge was proposed, we have not found any evidence of such expansion in the Cantabrian Cornice. For instance, diversity values for haplogroup V are significantly higher in Southern Iberia than in the Cornice and, confirming previous results (Simoni et al., 2000), we have not found significant latitudinal clines for this haplogroup. Furthermore, focussing on haplotype sharing, the Cornice is the most divergent area, despite North-east Iberia being the closest region to the rest of Europe. This could mean that the proposed expansion had a French instead of a Cantabrian origin, but the recent mtDNA regional study on French samples weakens this possibility (Dubut et al., 2004).

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge

Meaning that the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge explanation for the repopulation of Europe appears to be no longer tenable. Not that it has anything to do with the claims in the OP, it doesn't.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 14 February 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[The Puzzler]

GGG guy, on 13 February 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

It's been a while and in my absence, its good too see more on the Iberian Spain question. I've always thought that Iberians in Spain are the very same Caucasus Iberians. I'll add some text to that end. My quotes are from a book called Archaic England (AE) by Harold Bayley, pub - J.B. Lippincott Co. (Philadelphi) - Chapman & Hall LTD. (London), 1920.

(AE, after ~ p. 328) "On the Sierra de 'Elvira' near Granada used to stand Ilibiris whose coins are inscribed ILIBERI, ILBRS, ILIBERRIS, LIBER, ILBERNEN, ILBRNAKN, ILBREKIN, and these legends may be connoted with the famous Irish leprechaun, or Lubarkin whose figures less prominently in England as the Lubrican or Lubberkin. Sometimes the Irish knock off the 'holy' and refer simply to 'a little prechaun', but more usual form is Lubarkin: this most remarkable of the fairy tribe in Ireland is supposed to be peculiar to that island, but one would have once met him at Brecon, or Brychain at Brecknock, at Brichin in Forfarshrine, at Burchington in Kent, at Barking near London, and in many more directions. In connection with Iberia in the West there occur references to a giant Bergyon, who may be connoted with Burchun of the Asiatic Buratys. The religion of these Buratys was , said Bell, downright paganism of the grossest kind: he adds the information, 'they talk, indeed, of an Almighty and Good Being who created all things, whom they call Burchum; but see bewildered in obscure and fabulous notions concerning His nature and government'. Inquires may prove that these Burchum worshiping Buratys were of the Asiatic Iberian race which Strabo supposed were descendants of Western Iberi."

So I would claim (my Grand Global Genome theory) that the Buryans (Burjans as Arabic) are the same Siberian, Iberians (Caucasus), who went to Spain, and to India as the god Kubera, and this ties into the pygmy-leprechaun of England and Ireland. The Author here failed to mention Siberian god of mountains "Tengra", and Tengranism practiced by the shamans from here, nor the the factor that they should be the blacksmiths as well, who made the coins he refers to in this book, in my opinion, as they should be miners and metallugist by my approximations. The salt mime in Azerbaijan date to 5000 BC. Ringstone structures can also be found here. I would also claim them as Hyperboreans, and the Alboran, and Alborean Seas off the Spanish coastlines, and Balearic Isles. Unfortunately, the coins limit the timeline in Iberian Spain to about 400 BC, unless someone has an earlier date, and these coins are typified as Celtiberian in general, as well as some of the Celtiberian script on them. These folks would be of a "wolf-tribe" tamga, and some coins exhibit wolf, horses, and bulls. I'm aware of a Bora named mint in Spain regions. An unbridled horse on coins can mean "LIBERTY" as well. The author discusses this in the same book.

I think they are also of Bad Tibira in Sumer, and the city called Ur (dog) perhaps. I 'm also attempting to assimilate the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (the archers) into this Sibero-Ibero envelope. The biblical Abraham originates from Ur. Bad Tibira is the Sumerian "blacksmiths" location, and close to Ur. Temples related to Ur are called Ur Bar Ra (Urbarra) here. One should note that Bad Tibira received its ore from Mt. Arali in Africa, as one source within the old text, because the Sumerian lowlands didn't posses any good ore. Bad Tibira dates to ~3000BC and the Sumerian 2nd dynasty.

I agree with the megalith timeline referenced herein, and this is the same structures which I think can be a Hyperborean-Apollo type migrations, that also became one of the tribal builders of the megaliths. My study only traces Buryan-Burjan-Borean type tribes, however the Budin, Budini (Odin), named tribes are gaining more prominence as related, and does lead to a Buri-Bor-Odin-Thor relationships. I believe that the post Trojan War date is correct for most of my research concerning this Central Asian-European connection to actual text, but the megalithic structures certainly exhibits locational names that strongly suggests earlier settlements than the Iron Age time frames. Should be an earlier, more barbaric episode in Spain, and elsewhere. As Celts, my tribe is likely the Fir-Bolg, and/or the Eburones, around Belgium, or the Netherlands. I also believe the Norse orginate in the East Baltic, the became West Baltic later, that is Sweeden-Danish-Iceland Scandinavians. I see the Finnic-Saami regions and the Russian rivers as the earlier migration path, and to be higher probability. This connects Norse myths to Iberians of the Caucasus, and, also to Spain therefrom. Noah is from here too, Mt Ararat, or Georgia (al Burjan in Iranian myths).

Whether or not any of these people stayed in these locations as a DNA record today should be part of analysis, as in some cases, miners would extract ore to the extent ore would produce, and they could simply leave if the ore ran out. Some studies have mentioned only fragments of a settlements at all around some smaller ancient mined locations. I think the Phoenicians could be of this nature as they were seemingly "traders", not miners perhaps. I think the Hyperboreans and Phoenicians were early trading partners, so this could allow a miner-Sea People pathway to go west to Spain.

The god Kabeiros is on Spain's coins (Belearic Isles), on Ligurian coins (on the Genoa question), and on Phoenician coins. Also, on Thessaly coins (see Veria, Berea in Macedonia).

Thanks for the blog and I hope this brings some areas of interest to the table, GGG guy.

Thanks GGG, I found it interesting that 'ur' means water in Basque, quite an appropriate name for Ur...

lur means land.


The CeltiIberians imo were people who had come into Spain c. 900BC from the Celtic core, which had moved West from the Black Sea and Thrace, all these people in ancient writings have yellow hair, blue eyes cropped up genetically on the Black Sea c. 10,000BC or was it 10,000 years ago, one of those of hand.

Seems to me a possible migration out of the areas of Scandinavia and Finland into this general core area occurred too, either from migration out, from a possible northern disaster, a trade route, West for tin and other minerals, as well as salt, found in Iberia, the speakers who spoke IE.

Ligurians imo are from a more Northern area, even Thrace or Northern Europe, who entered the area early and began sailing and trading with the Iberians, Etruscans, Phoenicians and others. They were fair or auburn haired. Auburn meant 'lighter than black' once.

I agree that from the Black Sea and mix of Scandinavian/Finnish and Celtic movement into Spain is likely as become a large part of who made up Iberia at that time.

[The Puzzler]

keithisco, on 14 February 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Just one more thing - the Basques are "lighter" in colouration that the rest of Spain, also much stockier. But.. the one defining trait is the high preponderance of O Rh Negative blood typing.

Fair enough Keith, thanks for your opinion.

The Sicani of Malta and Sicily are constantly referred to as being recorded as related to Iberians, so that keeps me thinking.