53 replies to this topic

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

psyche101, on 10 October 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

HI EOT

Sorry, you are right, I am always dyslexic when it comes to population stars, I get them face about every time.
But you are wrong about the pop III stars, the supernovae laten about 10 million years. The stars themselves, several hundred million years.  Otherwise, I'd pretty much agree that Iron was abundant enough 10 billion years ago to consider life beginning to take form. However, you mention evolution, how long do you think it took for life itself to evolve? How long do you think proto life might have needed to evolve into microorganisms, and then onto more complex creatures?

My opinion. (Concise version)
Considering the harsh conditions in the early universe, I suspect proto life might start forming into life maybe as soon as 4-6 billion years after the big bang? Then maybe another 2-4 billion years to look somewhat like life as we know it, then maybe another 2-4 billion years to attain what we would call intelligence? So my guess would be the first intelligence may have arisen as long as 5 billion years ago?

In my opinion, I also would favour the blinking on all over the place idea. Stars spread the blocks far and wide, there wold be species we never possibly could see out there no matter how fast you go. Building blocks for life are found throughout space.

I would find it odd if other life didn't exist in the universe because the universe is so HUGE. Now if life did advance to the level of space travel you also have to take into account how long would it take them to get to a planet like ours. Are they so advanced that they can travel at the speed of light ( which I doubt ) or did they figure out a way to get around the universe ignoring light speed travel altogether. Then again maybe there not traveling any real distance at all but are just jumping dimensions.  Opinions?

[psyche101]

R4z3rsPar4d0x, on 10 October 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

I would find it odd if other life didn't exist in the universe because the universe is so HUGE. Now if life did advance to the level of space travel you also have to take into account how long would it take them to get to a planet like ours. Are they so advanced that they can travel at the speed of light ( which I doubt ) or did they figure out a way to get around the universe ignoring light speed travel altogether. Then again maybe there not traveling any real distance at all but are just jumping dimensions.  Opinions?

OK, good call!

The vastness of space is a bit of a fallacy though, even though I agree with you, because it is big does not mean it holds life. But we feel comfortable with that assumption.

Thats is the problem isn't it. The Universe is unimaginably huge. So big that travel is not going to allow us to ever see the other side of the Universe, especially considering the rate of expansion. But we all have to start someplace.

We have the ability to travel between the stars. Check this link - Project Orion. Nuclear Propulsion.

Back as far as 1960, we could have taken to the stars. The Nuclear test ban treaty halted the project for a fear of fallout back to earth. The idea was to use nuclear detonations on a "pusher plate" to propel a craft through space. It was estimated we might achieve 8-10% the speed of light in city sized spaceships. The motto of the project was Saturn by '72 I think.
Imagine had we taken of in 1960 for Alpha Centauri. We would be there now, exploring.

So should we not see at least some clunky spaceships that took the first steps? Satellites  Debris? Probes? None have even been found. That does not discount life, it does not discount space travel. But we are in a remote location, a long way from anything. The galaxy and the Universe as you say is massive. I do not doubt for a second that others are also wading into space, and some might be regular travellers, but I do not see any evidence in nature or otherwise that such distances can be spanned in a reasonable amount of time.
But if we are seeing advanced species, surely their earlier efforts might leave a mark of some sort?

So, why would the first contact not be communications? Safe, long distance, cheap, low risk and good returns on investment.

I think when ET notices us, or vice versa that it will be more akin to a phone call than shaking hands. It just makes sense to me. You can find out if the atmosphere is toxic or not, you can find out if the inhabitants are friendly or not, and you can learn everything you need to know before taking the risk of crossing space. You eliminate risk, you eliminate quarantine, you eliminate most cost. It seems "intelligent" to me to phone ahead, and rather silly to blindly jump in with both feet and go poking around a veritable minefield.

I also agree they are not likely to be traversing the speed of light. I do not see anyone doing that ever from anyplace. I see them using time dilation, length contraction and so forth, which can assist us so greatly that theoretically we can reach the center of the Galaxy in a mere 12 years, but I do not see anyone outrunning a massless particle.

Thanks for asking.

Edited by psyche101, 10 October 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

psyche101, on 10 October 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

HI EOT

Sorry, you are right, I am always dyslexic when it comes to population stars, I get them face about every time.
But you are wrong about the pop III stars, the supernovae laten about 10 million years. The stars themselves, several hundred million years.  Otherwise, I'd pretty much agree that Iron was abundant enough 10 billion years ago to consider life beginning to take form. However, you mention evolution, how long do you think it took for life itself to evolve? How long do you think proto life might have needed to evolve into microorganisms, and then onto more complex creatures?

My opinion. (Concise version)
Considering the harsh conditions in the early universe, I suspect proto life might start forming into life maybe as soon as 4-6 billion years after the big bang? Then maybe another 2-4 billion years to look somewhat like life as we know it, then maybe another 2-4 billion years to attain what we would call intelligence? So my guess would be the first intelligence may have arisen as long as 5 billion years ago?

In my opinion, I also would favour the blinking on all over the place idea. Stars spread the blocks far and wide, there wold be species we never possibly could see out there no matter how fast you go. Building blocks for life are found throughout space.

For our own purposes we pretty much agree that intelligent life would exist throughout the universe several billion years ago.

Just look at the technological progress humans have made in the last 100 years - amazing!
Now think of where we'll be in a billion years,,, 4 billion years from now. Our imaginations are not that good but I think you may agree that we will conquer "long distance" space travel by use of wormholes probably in the next 100 years. maybe less.

This is why it is so easy for me to think that this planet could have been visited a billion years ago or more, by any number of intelligent ET beings from our own galaxy and possibly beyond.

it's a fait acompli

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 10 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

OK, good call!

I also agree they are not likely to be traversing the speed of light. I do not see anyone doing that ever from anyplace. I see them using time dilation, length contraction and so forth, which can assist us so greatly that theoretically we can reach the center of the Galaxy in a mere 12 years, but I do not see anyone outrunning a massless particle.

Thanks for asking.

They are already here and have been here a long time.  Anyone who doesn't know that by now is just out to lunch or has their head buried in the sand.

[psyche101]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 11 October 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

For our own purposes we pretty much agree that intelligent life would exist throughout the universe several billion years ago.

Just look at the technological progress humans have made in the last 100 years - amazing!
Now think of where we'll be in a billion years,,, 4 billion years from now. Our imaginations are not that good but I think you may agree that we will conquer "long distance" space travel by use of wormholes probably in the next 100 years. maybe less.

This is why it is so easy for me to think that this planet could have been visited a billion years ago or more, by any number of intelligent ET beings from our own galaxy and possibly beyond.

it's a fait acompli

Hrrmzz, I am not so sure that we can ever travel via wormholes or through deep space in such a short cut fashion. If such existed in nature, I would be more inclined to think so, but black holes do not go to other areas of space. I'd like to see something more convincing that such can be created, made large enough to use, and then be held open long enough to use. To my experience, wormholes seem to create more problems with space travel than they solve.

In one billion years, many are pegging us to be extinct. There is a theory about the time span a species can survive.

But I did not think that with time all answers come. Consider drag racing. They said we would never break the 7 second quarter mile.
Till someone did it in 6. Then 5. Now we are into sub 5 second quarter mile runs. Some boffins said that would kill a human body like 100 years ago. Not the case!

But where do we go from here? Can we do a sub 3 second run? Maybe - 2 second? Holy Cow. 1 Second? No. No conventionally aspirated engine can ever cross a quarter mile in under one second, no matter what you do to it. It's simply impossible and there is nothing anyone can do about it. But could a space shuttle do it? Well, the acceleration of a top fuel drag racing vehicle is actually faster than the space shuttle, but lets look at something like re-entry and a rolling start. Could the quarter mile then be covered in one second? Lets go out on a limb and say yes, indeed it can!
What happens when you get to .001 of a second? How do you better that? Will time better it? It canot! Everything has limits. I think Einstein found the Universal speed limit. The universes equivalent to 1+1=2. It is what it is. I see absolutely nothing that indicates otherwise outside of science fiction.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 11 October 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

They are already here and have been here a long time.  Anyone who doesn't know that by now is just out to lunch or has their head buried in the sand.

That is not true at all. People have differing beliefs for differing reasons  and some have outright belief, which is based on nothing at all. I have seen two UFO's, three if you count what I suspect was a satellite, and all were without doubt natural phenomena. And I am surprised that you would try to change what I have experienced, I have never done so to you. You say having an experience is a profound effect, that is all I express from my perspective. Nor have I ever expressed such a sentiment at you for having a different opinion to you. I understand you giving people who give you a hard time such a rude response, but I do not feel that is the case here. Heck, I have even refrained from Zosers threads because a reasonable conversation canot be had in that environment.
I do not know what has happened to you of late, but you seem very snarky recently. I do not see what attacking all skeptics accomplishes. I sure do not take Zosers failings out on you.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 11 October 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

That is not true at all. People have differing beliefs for differing reasons  and some have outright belief, which is based on nothing at all. I have seen two UFO's, three if you count what I suspect was a satellite, and all were without doubt natural phenomena. And I am surprised that you would try to change what I have experienced, I have never done so to you. You say having an experience is a profound effect, that is all I express from my perspective. Nor have I ever expressed such a sentiment at you for having a different opinion to you. I understand you giving people who give you a hard time such a rude response, but I do not feel that is the case here. Heck, I have even refrained from Zosers threads because a reasonable conversation canot be had in that environment.
I do not know what has happened to you of late, but you seem very snarky recently. I do not see what attacking all skeptics accomplishes. I sure do not take Zosers failings out on you.

That wasn't meant for you personally, but only intended as a more general remark.

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 11 October 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

For our own purposes we pretty much agree that intelligent life would exist throughout the universe several billion years ago.

Just look at the technological progress humans have made in the last 100 years - amazing!
Now think of where we'll be in a billion years,,, 4 billion years from now. Our imaginations are not that good but I think you may agree that we will conquer "long distance" space travel by use of wormholes probably in the next 100 years. maybe less.

This is why it is so easy for me to think that this planet could have been visited a billion years ago or more, by any number of intelligent ET beings from our own galaxy and possibly beyond.

it's a fait acompli

I could see the wormhole thing, and like psych said I dont see anyone going faster than the speed of light, I think the universe does have set rules that cannot be broken. I do believe that they could find ways around the vast distance thing by either dimension jumping, or some other means of in essence cheating what we earthlings call physics.. I also noticed that no one has yet said anything about the different dimension aspect. I know its kind of hard to think about.

Edited by R4z3rsPar4d0x, 11 October 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 11 October 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

That wasn't meant for you personally, but only intended as a more general remark.

My apologies then.