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Doggerland


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#451    danielost

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 08:01 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 October 2009 - 06:10 PM, said:

I'm not sure that was the situation 8000 years ago, not long after the end of the last ice age.

The vast areas of swamps appeared a lot later as far as I know.

There could have been tribes each of a couple of hundred people in number wandering around these areas, areas that were not completely soaked with water, but areas that were still covered with forests and meadows and hills (as they discovered very recently by a study/mapping of the bottom of the North Sea).

Dutch and British trawlers have dragged up many stone tools from the bottom of the North Sea in their fishing nets, so maybe the area was not densely populated, but there were many more people living and hunting there than previously thought.
according to what i saw yesterday, no one survived on doggerland since doggerland itself didnt survive.  say hello to the english channel.

the ones who survived the raising of the north sea, did so by simple walking away.

Edited by danielost, 13 May 2010 - 08:02 PM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#452    Abramelin

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 08:40 PM

View Postdanielost, on 13 May 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

according to what i saw yesterday, no one survived on doggerland since doggerland itself didnt survive.  say hello to the english channel.

the ones who survived the raising of the north sea, did so by simple walking away.


Jesus F. Christ, you woke up late.


Read the whole thread, please.

31 pages of posts, and you post nothing but the bloody obvious.

It's no use posting here; either people are too lazy to read the whole thread, or they just hop in, and dont give a flying fck about what others may have said already.

We humans are doomed; we don't like to learn from eachother; we all like to invent the wheel and the light-bulb a couple of thousand times again.
We don't listen to eachother, we close our ears because we all want to be first, no matter what went on before.

Well, my friend, you were last, but not best.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2010 - 08:59 PM.


#453    danielost

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 01:36 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 May 2010 - 08:40 PM, said:

Jesus F. Christ, you woke up late.


Read the whole thread, please.

31 pages of posts, and you post nothing but the bloody obvious.

It's no use posting here; either people are too lazy to read the whole thread, or they just hop in, and dont give a flying fck about what others may have said already.

We humans are doomed; we don't like to learn from eachother; we all like to invent the wheel and the light-bulb a couple of thousand times again.
We don't listen to eachother, we close our ears because we all want to be first, no matter what went on before.

Well, my friend, you were last, but not best.


the so called black sea flood also was slow enough that even i with my bad ankles could have out walked it.

the gilgamash flood was only a seasonal flood, that take place early, which is why gilgamash ends up in the persian sea with a raft full of animals going to market.

so neither of those floods could be the bible flood, they werent big enough or fast enough.  

the only thing that makes sense is a tidal wave at least large enough to wash over the entire middle east, killing everyone not on a boat.

this is assuming that the story actually took place in the middle east and not in the usa.  where there are four rivers that come together at one point.  the missouri, the ohio, the upper Mississippi and the lower Mississippi.  at one point the mississippi flowed north not south.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#454    Abramelin

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:14 PM

View Postdanielost, on 14 May 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

the so called black sea flood also was slow enough that even i with my bad ankles could have out walked it.

the gilgamash flood was only a seasonal flood, that take place early, which is why gilgamash ends up in the persian sea with a raft full of animals going to market.

so neither of those floods could be the bible flood, they werent big enough or fast enough.  

the only thing that makes sense is a tidal wave at least large enough to wash over the entire middle east, killing everyone not on a boat.

this is assuming that the story actually took place in the middle east and not in the usa.  where there are four rivers that come together at one point.  the missouri, the ohio, the upper Mississippi and the lower Mississippi.  at one point the mississippi flowed north not south.


This thread is NOT about any Bible flood, and also NOT about Atlantis.

This is about Doggerland.

And please read this thread as much as you can, I know its 31 pages now..... you will notice I have talked about the Storegga Slide lots of times.

You will learn that 6100 BC a giant tsunami finally destroyed what was left of that area.


#455    danielost

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 May 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

This thread is NOT about any Bible flood, and also NOT about Atlantis.

This is about Doggerland.

And please read this thread as much as you can, I know its 31 pages now..... you will notice I have talked about the Storegga Slide lots of times.

You will learn that 6100 BC a giant tsunami finally destroyed what was left of that area.


the only reason i even responded to this is because they had a show on it this week.


and as the bible flood i was adding that in because the black sea rise was simular to the north sea rise except that the tidal wave came first.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#456    Abramelin

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 04:15 PM

View Postdanielost, on 14 May 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

the only reason i even responded to this is because they had a show on it this week.


and as the bible flood i was adding that in because the black sea rise was simular to the north sea rise except that the tidal wave came first.


Well, like I said HERE , you can watch the whole documentary online: http://v.youku.com/v...Y1MTM5NjA0.html

Btw, the situation in the Black Sea was completely different from the North Sea/Doggerland event.

Around 5500 BC the Bosporus breeched, and flooded the coasts on the Black Sea, and not as fast as was first being suggested, or like someone said, "they didn't have to run for the hills".

Around 6100 BC the last part of Doggerland (Doggerland had already been sinking due to rising sea level and isostatic rebound) got catastrophically flooded by a huge tsunami. Whoever lived there didn't have to run either, they got flushed down the drain...


#457    danielost

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:01 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 May 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Well, like I said HERE , you can watch the whole documentary online: http://v.youku.com/v...Y1MTM5NjA0.html

Btw, the situation in the Black Sea was completely different from the North Sea/Doggerland event.

Around 5500 BC the Bosporus breeched, and flooded the coasts on the Black Sea, and not as fast as was first being suggested, or like someone said, "they didn't have to run for the hills".Around 6100 BC the last part of Doggerland (Doggerland had already been sinking due to rising sea level and isostatic rebound) got catastrophically flooded by a huge tsunami. Whoever lived there didn't have to run either, they got flushed down the drain...


i was kind of comparing the breach to a tidal wave.  must have seem like near the entrance.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#458    Abramelin

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:07 PM

View Postdanielost, on 14 May 2010 - 05:01 PM, said:

i was kind of comparing the breach to a tidal wave.  must have seem like near the entrance.

Yep, near the entrance it must have been like hell, huge waves and thundering noise.

But further up the Black Sea coasts it must have looked like a never ending high tide that kept rising for what must have looked like forever.


#459    Abramelin

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:51 PM

Getting back to the labyrinths... something I noticed is that the 'entrance' of the labyrinths found in Europe (and yeah, also in India, Goa) is always at the bottom, while those found in the Americas (like the Hopi and Nazca ones) always have the entrance at the top).

Could be nothing but a coincidence, but it could also be explained by the different location from where the spiraling comet was seen, half a world apart.

I have been playing with a tennis ball, LOL, to try to imagine it. I'm lost, I know...

The only way people could have seen it upside down on the other side of the earth is because it was very close to earth; if the comet was close to the sun, or, anyway, far far away, people living on the other half of the world should have seen it in a similar way, not upside down.

But I am not at all sure I am seeing this right..

Nazca:

Posted Image

Hopi:

Posted Image

European:


Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 14 May 2010 - 06:06 PM.


#460    Abramelin

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:28 PM

A lomg time ago I found this picture on the www:

Posted Image

I don't know what site I got it from, but from my meager French it's from some French site about Jürgen Spanuth, the guy who claimed he found Atlantis in the North Sea (Helgoland).

To me that was utter nationalistic (German/1953)  bull.

The text below the pic ( depicting the trajectory of a comet he called "Sekhmet") mentions the 13th century BC, and Spanuth connects it with Ragnarok and N/W European mythology (of Germany and Scandinavia).

I didn't read his book, so I don't know how he came to that conclusion.

Was there a comet/asteroid  that hit the North Sea in the 13th century BC, or not??

Did anyone here read Spanuth's book, and know how he came to the conclusion a comet impacted into the North Sea??

......

EDIT

Of course I hope Spanuth was wrong with the date of impact of that comet-asteroid, ´Sekhmet`.

I hope it impacted many millennia before the 13th century BC.

But I searched and searched, but no comet impacted around the time Spanuth claimed it did.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 May 2010 - 08:00 PM.


#461    Abramelin

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:53 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 May 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

A week ago I stumbled upon a petroglyph that sort of amazed me, in connection with the Doggerland/comet/circular pattern thing I have been blabbering about for a few pages.

I found it by accident, and someone on some forum commented about it, saying: "That looks like Brittain and the North Sea, but what is that circular thing in the middle??"

But when I was on that site, someone banged on my front door, I opened the door, and let my visitor in.

Was a bit of a desprate person, so I closed my computer a bit drastically, and lost what I had found.

Next day I tried to retrieve that same petroglyph, but whatever I tried, I couldn't find it again.

Well, this is what I remember it looked like:

Posted Image

If any of you knows about this petroglyph, please post about it here.

I have tried everything, but somehow I am unable to find it again.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that the image above is what *I* remember of it, and no doubt it is 'colored' by what I wish to remember....

I am quite sure about the left and central part of the image, but not at all sure about the right part. Now that I'm thinking again about it, it may have had some sort of zig-zag line at the right also, and thus different from what I drawed at the right.

I hope you all can understand how frustrating this is: it's like winning the lottery and not being able to collect the money because you lost your ticket.





.

On and off I try to find that petroglyph, just so I know I am not getting crazy , lol.

But I did find something that comes very close:

Posted Image

Its from Barclodiad y Gawres, Anglesey, Wales.

http://www.stonepage...ves/001852.html

http://www.themodern...iadygawres.html

And if you look closely, you will see the spiral on the upper side of the rock-carving.
But the petroglyph I saw had a clear spiral in the middle without the chevrons between the zigzag lines. Also did the spiral have a 'tail' from center downwards.

EDIT:

Oh brother, I think I am homing in:

The next is a drawing based on some photo of rock-art in Anglesey (Bryn Celli Ddu):

Posted Image

http://www.hedgedruid.com/?p=4856


EDIT:
This is the original stone on another site:

Posted Image
.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2010 - 02:21 AM.


#462    Abramelin

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:27 PM

Posted Image
http://en.wikipedia....thetical_bolide If you click this link, Wiki will tell you there is nothing about Tollmann and his bolides. But just copy and past this link into your browser, and it will get you there. Jesus, this site is like an ant's nest, filled with BUGS!!! )

Figure 8.9 plots the location of the seven impact sites derived from geological evidence and legends. Two of these sites, in the Tasman and North Seas, have been identified as having mega-tsunami events around this time. The North Sea impact centre corresponds with the location of the Storegga slides described in Chapter 6. Here, the main tsunami took place 7,950 ±190 years ago. One of the better dates comes from wood lying above tektites in a sand dune along the South Coast of Victoria, Australia.

The tektites are associated with the Tasman Sea impact and date at 8,200 ±250 years before present. These dates place the Deluge Comet impact event--a term used by the Tollmanns--around 6200 BC.

This event does not stand alone during the Holocene. It has been repeated in recent times--a fact supported by Maori and Aborigine legends from New Zealand and Australia.

--Edward A. Byrant, from "More Recent Evidence from Legends and Myths", a review of Deluge Comet Impact Event 8,200 ± 200 years ago (Kristan-Tollmann and Tollmann, 1992)

==

EDIT:

If this theory is anything close to what actually happened around 6100 BC, then there must have been a swarm of 'bolides' impacting on earth, creating havoc and destruction.

Those comets or bolides were seen across the earth, and my theory is that it was a comet outgassing sideways - creating a huge spiral shape in the heavens -  and accompanied with smaller bolides.

These spiral shapes (or shapes depicted as concentric circles with a 'tail', and much later as circular labyrinths) were carved into rock by the people living back then, around 6100 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2010 - 03:53 PM.


#463    Abramelin

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:11 PM

A summary:

-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They were very probably seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-Ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC (the Storegga Slide). At 6100 BC -before it got hit by the Storegga tsunami - all that was left of Doggerland was an island the size of Ireland

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source. Btw, the Frisians are genetically distinct from other people living around the North Sea, and they were there, very probably millenia ago. And they builded clay/stone mounts to live on, whole villages were on those 'terps'.

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid. But that must have been after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and only left a dangerous sand bank ("Doggers Bank")

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers - about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Were they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??

-18- Hmmmm......maybe the Celts (of Ireland, Scotland and Wales) had a name for Doggerland ( a name they would much later use for Scandinavia and/or North West Germany), and that name would be "Lochlan" (and lots of different spellings).

-19- Stonehenge may have been a 'healing' culture, and may also have been a sacred burial ground for the Doggerlanders

-20- "Lochlan", an Irish Gaelic word for 'Land of Lakes' is an appropriate word for Doggerland, because scientists have found out Doggerland was a land of rivers, marshes, woodlands, and lakes.

-21- Lochlan/Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the Fo®morians and/or Cuithne, and/or Tuatha De Danann as described in ancient Irish legends

-22- At present the Scots have the following names for the North Sea :

Muir Lochlainn = North Sea
Mhuir a Tuath = North Sea


-23- Heh, maybe good ol'Tolkien dreamt about its destruction by a 'giant, silent Wave' (genetic memory, or something. Well, it earned him a lot of fame and money, right?

-24- Did ancient Native Americans travel to Doggerland along the Gulf Stream ( think "Red Paint People/Maritime Archaic")? Were they the 'dark haired, dark skinned' Fomorians? You tell me... (there are reports dating from Roman times up to just a couple of centuries ago of Inuit arriving in Scotland, Ireland and Holland in their canoes).

-25- There are those who say that Doggerland may have existed long after the Storegga Slide because it's inhabitants build dikes to protect them (Deruelle).

-26- Juergen Spanuth published a book (1953) about his theory that Atlantis was located in the North, and that Atlantis City was nothing but Helgoland. I don't agree with his theory, but he used finds on the bottom of the sea, west of Denmark.

-27- The Megalithic Culture of western Europe may have originated in Doggerland; these people built huge structures using tree trunks; these structures were destroyed by the Storegga Slide; after that they sailed out to the countries they already knew of, and started building using a more durable material: stone.

-28- Submerged megalithic structures have been found òn the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of Orkney.

-29- Doggerlanders were fishers and seafarers, and they may have sailed up the Elbe river into the center of Europe, and thus influencing much of the European culture with their stories and myths.

-29- Volcanoes erupting in the Eifel region of Germany, around 13,000 BC, may have forced people to flee to the north west of that region: Doggerland (and of course the countries near Doggerland. A large area was made uninhabitable for ages across a large stretch of Europe: northern France, west and north Germany. Food was poisened, water was undrinkable, people died.

-30- Long after Doggerland finally sank beneath the waves, people remembered it. They even gave offers to the sea (the North Sea) in the form of stone age axes, beautifully and smooth tools that were seen as very special around that time.

-31- Stonehenge and similar structures in the other Brittish Isles and Ireland may have been built by the refugees of Doggerland, but now they used stone instead of oak trees that were abundant on Doggerland.
But not immediately: first they used these oaks (Tara Hill, Ireland, or the wooden structures that preceded Stonehenge).

-32- Most of these structures are connected with some death cult, and on the east coast of England they found the remnants of a wooden circular structure, and a scientist said it was made for the dead, and that the ancients may have ferried their dead across the North Sea, to an 'Island of the Dead'. Dogger Island, perhaps??

-33- The Doggerlanders were whalers (amongst other professions), they were not too afraid to sail the oceans. When they fled after their homeland got flooded, they went to the countries they had encountered during their voyages and hunting parties.

-34-  All over the world, but especially in Scotland, the Brittish Isles in general, and Ireland (and Scandinavia) they found socalled 'cup-and-circle' petroglyphs.

Many of these circles are concentric circles with a 'tail' form center to outer circle, accompanied with 'cups'.

From what I gathered around the internet, these symbols could well represent an impact of a spiralling comet (creating a huge and spectacular image across the ancient heavens) that impacted into the north of the present North Sea (west of Norway), causing the Storegga Slide, and subsequently causing the huge tsumani that flooded the remnants of Doggerland.

Petroglyphs like that are found all over the earth, but most in N/W Europe.

-35- According to one theory, around 6100 BC a swarm of 'bolids' impacted on earth (Tollmann).

-36- More recent and circular labyrinths are - according to me - depictions of this same event. The 'entrance' of the labyrinth being equal to the tail of the comet that destroyed land 6100 BC.

Labyrinths all over the earth have to do with 'death at the center', Death, another life, the afterlife, whatever comes after the maggots start eating our flesh. The center of the spiralling comet was of course the comet itself, the rock that eventually impacted into the North Sea, and caused the death of many thousands of people.

These labyrinths are rather similar all over the earth, but in the Americas that socalled 'entrance' is always at the top of the labyrinth, while in Europe and India that entrance is at the bottom. I think that is caused by where the people watching that heavenly event were located on earth.

-37- I think I found a repesentation ( petroglyphs in Wales) of a spiralling comet impacting into the North Sea.... wishfull thinking, no doubt.


This was the latest summary.

I do realize this thread is long, 32 pages. But before you think you have something to say about the summary, I do hope you did make the effort of reading the whole thread.

It's kind of a nuisance to read a post that sort of proves someone just hopped on, and didn't bother to read what has been posted already, and just dumps his/her opinion.

Research means sweat, opinions are like a**holes, "everybody has one"

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2010 - 05:46 PM.


#464    Abramelin

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:52 PM

To give you an impression of Doggerland:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw9_OU64NTI&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded[/url]


#465    SlimJim22

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  • "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." Carl Jung

Posted 28 May 2010 - 09:35 PM

Nice summary. You have the basis of a decent book there Abe. It seems possible as an arctic home land like Thule or Hyperborea. An event of such magnitude would leave a significant mark on the mind of the survivors and I bet there were a lot. It makes a lot of sense that to build with stone would have become a priority if not to appease the god who wrought their destruction at least that their presence would be undisputable.

Check through this Phillip Coppens link of megalithic sites of Europe. Something a bit closer to the time frame may turn up. Mainland Europe wold have been an obvious destination but could they have made it as far as north Africa. Maybe they thought to get as far away as possible and some stayed closer others went further a field.

http://www.philipcop...m/articles.html

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."




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