902 replies to this topic

[kmt_sesh]

cormac mac airt, on 06 January 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

In Hebrew the name used was "Sheol", which was also NOT a place of eternal punishment like the Christian Hell.

cormac

To add, I think the most salient point in your post is the modifier Christian Hell. The Hell as we've come to understand it does appear to have reached its fullest form as an eternal place of torment for sinners in the Christian tradition. The original Hebrew concept of the afterlife was much less defined. "Sheol" was a place where all deceased were meant to go, which was similar in nature to the afterlives of Mesopotamians and Greeks and others. Even the Egyptians, as elaborate and sophisticated as their afterlife concepts were, did not envision an eternal hell, at least for mortals. Their greatest fear was the destruction of the soul followed by eternal nonexistence.

Of all ancient Near Eastern traditions, the religion that possessed something akin to the Christian Hell was Zoroastrianism. I've always held that this religion of Persia had profound effects on the developments of later Judaism and, by extension, Christianity.

One thing that's important to consider is that the Bibles many of us Christians have read are not direct translations from ancient Hebrew or Aramaic but from Greek. Christianity's original language was mainly Greek. It was in Alexandria that Ptolemy is supposed to have commissioned a full Greek translation of the Old Testament, and this translation came down to us as the Septuagint. The New Testament appended to the Old Testament in early Christian traditions was originally also written in Greek. It was the scholars of the Septuagint who struggled with translating Hebrew into Greek, and some notable idiosyncrasies resulted in the translation process. A properly trained biblical scholar can point out those instances in which the Greek translations wandered away from the original Hebrew version of the Old Testament. It's actually kind of interesting.

I did some quick etymological reviews of the word "hell" and what I saw is that it came into English from a Germanic origin (e.g., Hölle). The ultimate origin appears to be an Indo-European root meaning "to cover, to hide."

I'm in a wordy mood tonight so perhaps I ought to shut up now.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

DieChecker, on 06 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

Depending on the Translation you are reading the Bible also speaks of Hades and Tartarus. Both Greek hells. It would seem a lot more likely to me, since English comes from Proto-Norse/German, that the Christians word "Hell" came from translating the work into English, which would have had a similar place/word in Hel, or Niflehel/Niflheim, one of the nine worlds of the Pagan Norse mythology. Thus, Hell is a pagan word, not a Christian word, in origin

This of course will vary from culture to culture and missionaries would have adapted the way their message was delivered to suit local traditions. No Hell in my bible, it is Ад (Ad) which comes from Greek Ἅδης. So Russian Hell is Hades. Some say it is Perm.......

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 06 January 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[dreamland]

kmt_sesh  i am surprised that you or administrator even allow to talk on different subjects. What you guys talking about is completely off-topic which should be " Secret Caves under Pyramids". This is like starting topic about egyptians and then talking about mayans. I am sure that for many this is very annoying and should in my opinion add or change your rules. You guys started talking about religion and staff... and you should talk about it in :

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs

Friendly discussion on religion and spirituality

Anyways..let's go back to my topic.. I was reading something interesting about the cave system discovered by explorer
Henry Salt. This article is from Andrew Collins website :
After exploring a crack in the rock, Salt and Caviglia unexpectedly found themselves peering inside a chasm-like chamber, partly hewn, partly natural, which opened up into a maze of subterranean passages. After traveling for a distance of some several hundred yards, the two men chanced upon a spacious chamber that linked to three other chambers of equal size, from which went various 'labyrinthick' passages. Salt left Caviglia to explore one of them, he having become bored by these empty corridors and chambers. The Italian followed one for a distance of 300 feet before giving up, having found no obvious antiquities.

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

[questionmark]

dreamland, on 06 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

kmt_sesh  i am surprised that you or administrator even allow to talk on different subjects. What you guys talking about is completely off-topic which should be " Secret Caves under Pyramids". This is like starting topic about egyptians and then talking about mayans. I am sure that for many this is very annoying and should in my opinion add or change your rules. You guys started talking about religion and staff... and you should talk about it in :

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs

Friendly discussion on religion and spirituality

Anyways..let's go back to my topic.. I was reading something interesting about the cave system discovered by explorer
Henry Salt. This article is from Andrew Collins website :
After exploring a crack in the rock, Salt and Caviglia unexpectedly found themselves peering inside a chasm-like chamber, partly hewn, partly natural, which opened up into a maze of subterranean passages. After traveling for a distance of some several hundred yards, the two men chanced upon a spacious chamber that linked to three other chambers of equal size, from which went various 'labyrinthick' passages. Salt left Caviglia to explore one of them, he having become bored by these empty corridors and chambers. The Italian followed one for a distance of 300 feet before giving up, having found no obvious antiquities.

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

If you are talking about Colin's IR video: That is a fake. What he found is a known small cave located at the far end of a known and charted tomb including a small cave and that in 1934. That is why the video got colored (which is evident when you look at it examining the lights).

[cladking]

It's only natural for the topic to drift in a conversation.  Anyone can always steer it back.

dreamland, on 06 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

What is interesting for me,is that Both DR Hawass and his team,and also Andrew Collins never found some spacious chamber that linked to three other chamber and they never went that far. In my opinion,there must be something,but they missed just like Andrew Collins who found this opening to the caves by accident.

Yes.  It doesn't require a great deal of elapsed time for hundreds of thousands of bats to com-
pletely redecorate their living quarters. They excrete thousands of tons of guano annually and
if I'm right that they intentionally deposit it to choke off caves then it can be a very rapid process.

These caves need explorinng but the powers that be have a very long list of things they are ig-
noring so it might take years to get around to specifically ignoring this one.

[cladking]

questionmark, on 06 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

If you are talking about Colin's IR video: That is a fake. What he found is a known small cave located at the far end of a known and charted tomb including a small cave and that in 1934. That is why the video got colored (which is evident when you look at it examining the lights).

Says whom?

Where is your evidence for this?

Now I suppose you'll trot out Hawass' statement made in 2009 that there are no caves at Giza and he knows everything there is to know.

[questionmark]

cladking, on 06 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Says whom?

Where is your evidence for this?

Now I suppose you'll trot out Hawass' statement made in 2009 that there are no caves at Giza and he knows everything there is to know.

Again: He said no large caves. He had found one of them himself years before so he hardly would have said "caves" period. But none of them are the "Huge underworld" grown in Colin's imagination and seized upon by some mumbo-jumbo beleivers.

[dreamland]

Dr Hawass is out of his mind... He first made a statement ,that there are no underground caves and then he entered into one himself.
Watch this video here :

Watch what he said after 9:15
" i did not excavated this tunnel yet " ...  What in there ? Why he or nobody talks about it? I am sure he knows,but he wont tell the public.

[cladking]

questionmark, on 06 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Again: He said no large caves. He had found one of them himself years before so he hardly would have said "caves" period. But none of them are the "Huge underworld" grown in Colin's imagination and seized upon by some mumbo-jumbo beleivers.

Are you suggesting then that not excavating the caves is intentional so as not to prove the statement to be in error.

You might want to view the video in the opening post again.  That ship has sailed since it shows Zahi himself being dragged through large caves.

[questionmark]

cladking, on 06 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Are you suggesting then that not excavating the caves is intentional so as not to prove the statement to be in error.

You might want to view the video in the opening post again.  That ship has sailed since it shows Zahi himself being dragged through large caves.

No, that video shows the unfinished lower burial chamber of the Great Pyramid, not a cave. And yes, there are some bats in there. And that video shows several corridors (man made btw.) of certain burial places that most probably date from the Roman times. But they do not show any caves. And certainly nothing beyond a couple dozen yards.

[cladking]

questionmark, on 06 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

No, that video shows the unfinished lower burial chamber of the Great Pyramid, not a cave. And yes, there are some bats in there. And that video shows several corridors (man made btw.) of certain burial places that most probably date from the Roman times. But they do not show any caves. And certainly nothing beyond a couple dozen yards.

You can't be this unknowledgeable about G1 or Giza so I assume you're either
confused or forgotten the clip.  Try watching ALL of it and then remembering that
sound scientific theory makes good predictions and other means of understanding
reality do not make good predictions.

Orthodoxy is wrong on this basis alone.

[questionmark]

cladking, on 06 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

You can't be this unknowledgeable about G1 or Giza so I assume you're either
confused or forgotten the clip.  Try watching ALL of it and then remembering that
sound scientific theory makes good predictions and other means of understanding
reality do not make good predictions.

Orthodoxy is wrong on this basis alone.

Even if so, Collin's video is still a fake.

[cladking]

questionmark, on 06 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Even if so, Collin's video is still a fake.

I can't understand why anyone would believe this.  He has nothing to gain making a fake film
when the cave is right there and he had a camera with him.  It would be illogical to seek out a
different cave and risk being dismissed as a fraud.  Until there is hard scientific fact and actual
plots of the cave from excavations it is pointless to speculate on its details.

There is a cave and everyone has a theory but the orthodox theory is it needs to be locked up
and forgotten as soon as possible.  There is certainly some chicanery or something going on
here but it's all in the name of Egyptology.

[cladking]

dreamland, on 16 December 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

tunnel under the great pyramid... and cave that leads to nowhere at the tomb of the birds where is official entrance.. two videos here :
https://www.youtube....h?v=LTEVvkL-l3Q  and  

Why not watch the video again.  Listen to it as well.

[questionmark]

cladking, on 06 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I can't understand why anyone would believe this.  He has nothing to gain making a fake film
when the cave is right there and he had a camera with him.  It would be illogical to seek out a
different cave and risk being dismissed as a fraud.  Until there is hard scientific fact and actual
plots of the cave from excavations it is pointless to speculate on its details.

There is a cave and everyone has a theory but the orthodox theory is it needs to be locked up
and forgotten as soon as possible.  There is certainly some chicanery or something going on
here but it's all in the name of Egyptology.

Take a look at how lights look in a real IR video and then compare it to Colin's creation.