Obama threatens ‘Judeo-Christian values'

[MiskatonicGrad]

Sorry Karlis

By that logic Greeks should still worship Zeus.

I don"t think the same goverment has ruled greece for 3000 yrs.?

My point is this country was founded with certain values in mind and the farther we as a nation get away from those values the harded we are going to find it to survive.

[Likely Guy]

Sorry Karlis

I don"t think the same goverment has ruled greece for 3000 yrs.?

My point is this country was founded with certain values in mind and the farther we as a nation get away from those values the harded we are going to find it to survive.

The same government hasn't ruled the US since it's founding either. Most of the signers of the Declaration were slave owners as well.

Belief's and values change.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Likely Guy

[Karlis]

Hey Karlis, you're an Australian. Do you have a clue what your political leaders religious beliefs are, or care?

Political leaders' Religious beliefs should not be an issue, imo. Attacking a person for their religious beliefs is quite another thing.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Hey Karlis, you're an Australian. Do you have a clue what your political leaders religious beliefs are, or care?

the PM's an Atheist and the Opposition Leader is a Catholic from the 1950s.

We only know these things because our brand of religious wacko made a noise about the former during the election and the later because he himself makes a lot of noise about it.

[Cradle of Fish]

Hey Karlis, you're an Australian. Do you have a clue what your political leaders religious beliefs are, or care?

Our Prime Minister is an atheist and she isn't the first one. We have the Family First party which is sometimes labelled as a Christian Right party, and the only reason I don't support them is because I don't agree with their platform. Religion is seen as a personal matter in this country which is the way it should be.

[MiskatonicGrad]

The same government hasn't ruled the US since it's founding either. Most of the signers of the Declaration were slave owners as well.Belief's and values change.

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed. the only way to avoid this is to change the values built into the constitution or the values of the people running the goverment.

[Likely Guy]

Political leaders' Religious beliefs should not be an issue, imo. Attacking a person for their religious beliefs is quite another thing.

I totally agree with your first point. Regarding your second point, you're not suggesting though that I was attacking anyone's religious beliefs are you?*confused*

[Likely Guy]

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed. the only way to avoid this is to change the values built into the constitution or the values of the people running the goverment.

You missed (or glided by) my point about the slave owners who signed the Declaration. I said 'most' which was wrong. A third who signed were slave owners, however 2/3's who framed it were slave owners.

It took 90 some odd years and 12 previous ammendents to the Constitution to get that right.

My point is that they were all well intentioned men that meant the best for their fledgling nation, but they weren't perfect by any sense. Belief's and values as well as nations, change.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Likely Guy

[MiskatonicGrad]

You missed (or glided by) my point about the slave owners who signed the Declaration. I said 'most' which was wrong. A third who signed were slave owners, however 2/3's who framed it were slave owners.

It took 90 some odd years and 12 previous ammendents to the Constitution to get that right.

My point is that they were all well intentioned men that meant the best for their fledgling nation, but they weren't perfect by any sense. Belief's and values as well as nations, change.

I chose to ignore it. yeah it took us 88yrs. to come to our senses and free the slaves and we've been hearing about it for the last 148.

[ninjadude]

our founding fathers it is our christian duty to be involved in politics.

No they didn't. For they knew that we were not all Christian.

[ninjadude]

My point is this country was founded with certain values in mind and the farther we as a nation get away from those values the harded we are going to find it to survive.

I think you're ascribing values to the constitution that do not exist.

[MiskatonicGrad]

I think you're ascribing values to the constitution that do not exist.

I'm not sure what values you think I'm refering too. so let me clear it up some the framers had three major influences when writing the constitution the writings of baron Montesquieu, the commentaries of Sir William Blackstone, and (wait for it) The Bible "gasp". from Montesquieu we get the sepration of powers and blackstone gave us the rule of law he is still cited about 12 times a year by the supreme court and from the bible you can draw many similarities as to how God wanted his people to be ruled and how our founders tried to morph that into our constitution.

A little side note if you look in Judges 9 ver 8-15 as to why we can't find a good leader for this country. bear in mind this parable was written thousands of years ago and still holds true today.

[Varelse]

I hope Obama doesn't just threaten joodayo-xian edicts. I hope he crushes them. Time for people to figure out right from wrong without the help of ancient, conflicted comic books from the sky. Might save a few lives and create a few more scientists in the process.

But we know that won't happen. Just more fear mongering from right wing church leaders who know their congregants, if given half a chance to think for themselves, will. And most churches don't like thinkers. noop.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I'm not sure what values you think I'm refering too. so let me clear it up some the framers had three major influences when writing the constitution the writings of baron Montesquieu, the commentaries of Sir William Blackstone, and (wait for it) The Bible "gasp". from Montesquieu we get the sepration of powers and blackstone gave us the rule of law he is still cited about 12 times a year by the supreme court and from the bible you can draw many similarities as to how God wanted his people to be ruled and how our founders tried to morph that into our constitution.

A little side note if you look in Judges 9 ver 8-15 as to why we can't find a good leader for this country. bear in mind this parable was written thousands of years ago and still holds true today.

Did you know Thomas Jefferson refuted utterly every supernatural aspect of the life, times and teachings of Jesus? He maybe be a follower of Christ, but by just about every definition of what it means to be Christian he wasn't.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Did you know Thomas Jefferson refuted utterly every supernatural aspect of the life, times and teachings of Jesus? He maybe be a follower of Christ, but by just about every definition of what it means to be Christian he wasn't.

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Edited November 7, 2012 by MiskatonicGrad

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".

Would you look at that...

That said, 51 of the 55 "Founding Fathers" called themselves Christian for census purposes - 49 of them Protestants, so really not "proper" Christians

[ninjadude]

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Yes, like my ancestor Roger Williams who wanted a HIGH WALL between religion and government.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Our founding fathers used biblical principles in the forming of the constitution quoting any historian trying to prove the religious beliefs of the founders is not going to change that.

So back to my original point the farther our nation gets away from those principles the harder it is for our nation to prosper?

I don't know why when someone brings up the part religion had in the formation of this country everybodies panties get in a wad

the truth is the truth swallow it with a spoon full of sugar if it helps

[Neognosis]

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed.

I think not buying cheap chinese made crap would go a lot farther toward restoring our level of prosperity, rather than denying homosexuals the right to marry.

I'm also curious as to what "values" you think our founding fathers pulled from the bible. As far as I can recall, the founding fathers were trying to convince people to deny the divine right of kings, and the only other stuff from the bible that I recall involving government was when christ said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Aside from that, there's a whole bunch of stuff about when you can beat and/or kill your slaves, and how slaves should obey their masters, but we don't seem to have stuck to that. Is that what you are talking about?

What other values that are in the constitution (which isn't really about values at all) do you think are from the bible?

[MiskatonicGrad]

I think not buying cheap chinese made crap would go a lot farther toward restoring our level of prosperity, rather than denying homosexuals the right to marry.

I'm also curious as to what "values" you think our founding fathers pulled from the bible. As far as I can recall, the founding fathers were trying to convince people to deny the divine right of kings, and the only other stuff from the bible that I recall involving government was when christ said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Aside from that, there's a whole bunch of stuff about when you can beat and/or kill your slaves, and how slaves should obey their masters, but we don't seem to have stuck to that. Is that what you are talking about?

What other values that are in the constitution (which isn't really about values at all) do you think are from the bible?

Here is the whole problem with america in a nutshell. the founding fathers used Bible princibles as a basis for the constitution. Now 200yrs. later everybodies understanding of the bible is being gay is bad, beating your slaves is okay and jesus said something about Caesar. When I say do alittle research it means read the constitution read the quotes from the founding fathers and where they came up with the ideals they put in the constitution which inturn will lead you to the Bible and the writings of Blackstone and Motesquieu. If you are unwilling to take the time to educate yourself on this subject you will never come to an understanding of what this countries original purpose was.

But be warned it will make you question the sanity of voting and paying taxes and a whole lot of crap our goverment does.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed. the only way to avoid this is to change the values built into the constitution or the values of the people running the goverment.

So you'd be happy to, say, take the vote off 90% of the population because they don't own any land?

Or would you rather we brought back slavery in order to make things more like it was in 1812? Maybe we could get rid of those aeroplanes and high speed Internets too.

[MiskatonicGrad]

So you'd be happy to, say, take the vote off 90% of the population because they don't own any land?

Again if you had any idea as to why the fouding fathers put land ownership as a guidline to voting rights you wouldn't ask the question. The founding fathers only wanted people who had a stake in how the country was run to vote. back then land was cheap and got cheaper as the country expanded. just about anybody with half a brain a workethic could own land. Now any Tom Dick and Harry can vote and our country is on a downward spiral and gaining speed.

Now I understand today land ownership is not as easy so we could amend the constitution to but some other guidlines in place that is what the amendments are for. but you see we have gotten away from the princibles layed out by the framers there needed to be somesort of guidelines for who can and can't vote. I know we have some but they are alot looser then what the founders intended.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Again if you had any idea as to why the fouding fathers put land ownership as a guidline to voting rights you wouldn't ask the question. The founding fathers only wanted people who had a stake in how the country was run to vote.

An alternative interpretation would be "they wanted to keep power in the hands of the already powerful".

Now any Tom Dick and Harry can vote and our country is on a downward spiral and gaining speed.

Damn that democracy!

Lets make having your voice heard in how the nation you live in is run something you have to strive for.

[MiskatonicGrad]

An alternative interpretation would be "they wanted to keep power in the hands of the already powerful".

Well yes but again that was not the intent of the founders

Damn that democracy!

Lets make having your voice heard in how the nation you live in is run something you have to strive for.

I didn't know the U.S. was a democracy. as to your second point damn straight then maybe people would become better stewards of what the good lord blessed them with.

[ninjadude]

. If you are unwilling to take the time to educate yourself on this subject you will never come to an understanding of what this countries original purpose was.

So essentially you got nothing.