103 replies to this topic

[Uncle Sam]

freetoroam, on 20 January 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

I never said teaching them would make them go on a rampage, not every child out there is unstable.
As for the opposite, no, if the child is unstable then knowing they can gain access to guns could only make them worse, as you pointed out before, it is the parents responsibility to know if their child is a danger or not, and this is quite clearly not always the case.

How can you know if someone is unstable or not? Some of them hide it pretty well... that is the big main question. Since we stop placing people in mental homes or getting help for people who have mental problems, things have spiraled out of control. I sometimes think that the government actually planned for this when they started shutting down mental institutions and stop giving help for people who is mentally unstable. I am not a conspiracy nut, but it is starting to feel like this. The government and politicians are capitalizing on this big time, pushing for gun control harder than they ever pushed for before.

[Beckys_Mom]

Uncle Sam, on 20 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

There is no such thing as paradise on Earth, people really need to get their heads out of their ass and make due with what we got. His idea for paradise is hell for others.



There are places like that... matter of fact, throughout history those places have the highest murder rates and death tolls. Hitler once said, to defeat a nation is to disarm the nation. Well something along those lines... he disarmed everyone and it made it easy for placing them place undesirables in concentration camps or killing them in gas chambers. If Europe's army is defeated, what is going to stop another nation from going in and killing off all the Europeans?

So Ireland has the highest rate of murders ?

[AsteroidX]

Quote

it is the parents responsibility to know if their child is a danger or not

Theres alot of apathetic 2-3 job working single parents out there that may not know there children as well as they should. Ill call it a societal issue and not blame the parent for circumstances out of there control. It can be very tough to keep a roof over there heads and feed them. Unless we want to give every single parent full social benefits this wont change.

Edited by AsteroidX, 20 January 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[ExpandMyMind]

Professor Buzzkill, on 20 January 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

http://www.guardian....oting-five-dead

I am willing to bet that this teen was on anti depressent medication as well..

Can you be so sure that you are not reversing cause and effect? Yes, a high number of these types of shooters are on anti-depressants and anti-psychotic meds, but is the underlying problem the fact that these medications have helped cause such mental breakdowns (it may well be), or is it simply down to the fact that they are depressed and psychotic in the first place? Are these horrific episodes caused by the medical condition or caused, at least in some way, by the given treatment? Would they have carried out their acts had they not be medicated, or would a lack of medication have hastened or worsened their attacks? It is impossible at this moment in time to claim definitively one way or the other. Further tests and studies are needed - and on a very large scale.

For me it would first be the mental illness that contributed to their psychoses, but I am not naive enough to think that some of the mass produced medical products could have played a fairly substantial part. I believe that some medications can make psychoses worse, for sure, but this would have to be investigated on an individual basis.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on either bandwagon.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 20 January 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Uncle Sam]

Beckys_Mom, on 20 January 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

So Ireland has the highest rate of murders ?

I meant to say most... caught me with a brain fart, don't know why we can't correct our comments after someone respond to them.

[freetoroam]

Uncle Sam, on 20 January 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

I got a question for you then, what happens if all guns in the United States is taken away from home owners who are responsible and lawful citizens? What then? We become much more vulnerable to break ins, murders, rapes, and homicides because criminals will get their guns one way or another, rather you like it or not. Most people own guns to protect their family from these types of criminals. There is nothing there to deter them, there is nothing there to stop them from committing these types of crimes. Death toll will be much larger than it is today. People are less likely to be killed by an gun than it is likely be killed in a car crash. Those who advocate guns to be taken away will change their minds real quick when the bullets start flying.

This has been covered on another thread and I have already said, if i lived in an area in the States where guns were the norm, then yes, i would have one too. I have also pointed out that here in England we do not have guns, its has not contributed to everyone being burgled, raped or killed. But you live in America and it has gone way past that "no guns" stage.
But my point on this thread is not for every parent in the States to not own a gun, it is for every parent to be responsible enough to recognise the danger signs before having one in the house were there is an unstable child living. teaching that child on how to use the gun will not only get to know how to shoot, but also he will know there is a gun somewhere in the house, and chances are, when he finally cracks, he will do every thing in his power to get it.
Thankfully not every child is like this, so many parents are not in that position, but any child who is under some psychiatric help or medication, then the question should be asked to the parents, do they own a gun. This may not only save their lives, but many others.

[freetoroam]

Uncle Sam, on 20 January 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

How can you know if someone is unstable or not? Some of them hide it pretty well... that is the big main question. Since we stop placing people in mental homes or getting help for people who have mental problems, things have spiraled out of control. I sometimes think that the government actually planned for this when they started shutting down mental institutions and stop giving help for people who is mentally unstable. I am not a conspiracy nut, but it is starting to feel like this. The government and politicians are capitalizing on this big time, pushing for gun control harder than they ever pushed for before.

I can`t but the parents may well do. Adam Lanza`s mother did, and depending on how this story turns out, if the 2 adults were his parents, then we may see if there was some known instability with this teenager too.

[AsteroidX]

Quote

I meant to say most... caught me with a brain fart, don't know why we can't correct our comments after someone respond to them.

It happens from time to time.

[Uncle Sam]

freetoroam, on 20 January 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

I can`t but the parents may well do. Adam Lanza`s mother did, and depending on how this story turns out, if the 2 adults were his parents, then we may see if there was some known instability with this teenager too.

Education about guns and mental issues, plus mental help for them is definitely going to help in the long run. Seriously Education about these issues will go along way....

[Jinxdom]

questionmark, on 20 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would say determining how the kid got the gun and holding the gun owner responsible is much more important.

Imagine if somebody stole your car and ran somebody over and you got blamed for it while you are at work. Should you get charged with manslaughter or just negligence. Even though you couldn't of done anything to stop it?

A safe isn't a sure fire way to keep somebody out. Most gun safes and cabinets are pretty damn easy to unlock. (Do a search opening gun safes with plastic straw).  Most people do not check how easy it is to break in to their own things. I suggest lawmakers put regulations on selling safe's that you know work.

Edited by Jinxdom, 20 January 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[questionmark]

Jinxdom, on 20 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

A safe isn't a sure fire way to keep somebody out. Most gun safes and cabinets are pretty damn easy to unlock. (Do a search opening gun safes with plastic straw).  Most people do not check how easy it is to break in to their own things. I suggest lawmakers start there at the manufacturers.

If a safe is easy to unlock then it hardly is a safe, right? And a simple safe with a simple Lagard key (double barbed) is not easy to pick... in fact most locksmiths have to drill it out. A job that takes hours if the safe is worth its money.

[preacherman76]

itsnotoutthere, on 20 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well after reading some of the comments on these gun control threads american enthusiasm for killing each other knows no bounds. As i've said before, as long as americans would rather their children are shot to pieces than have their guns confiscated then this will just continue. As long as you're all happy with that, carry on.

Man that is classic. The only 2 options are gun confiscation or having our children "shot to pieces" You sir are an idiot.

[Professor Buzzkill]

ExpandMyMind, on 20 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Can you be so sure that you are not reversing cause and effect? Yes, a high number of these types of shooters are on anti-depressants and anti-psychotic meds, but is the underlying problem the fact that these medications have helped cause such mental breakdowns (it may well be), or is it simply down to the fact that they are depressed and psychotic in the first place? Are these horrific episodes caused by the medical condition or caused, at least in some way, by the given treatment? Would they have carried out their acts had they not be medicated, or would a lack of medication have hastened or worsened their attacks? It is impossible at this moment in time to claim definitively one way or the other. Further tests and studies are needed - and on a very large scale.

For me it would first be the mental illness that contributed to their psychoses, but I am not naive enough to think that some of the mass produced medical products could have played a fairly substantial part. I believe that some medications can make psychoses worse, for sure, but this would have to be investigated on an individual basis.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on either bandwagon.

I think you have a point, but...

*snip*

After re watching this documentary i think its safe to assume the drugs help to disconnect kids from emotions/others/themselves and consequences of their actions. It seems to be an "easy option" (as admitted by one of the Doctors in the documentary) that parents are more willing to take rather than traditional behaviour modification techniques.

Edited by Saru, 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM.
Video removed due to copyright

[ExpandMyMind]

Jinxdom, on 20 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Imagine if somebody stole your car and ran somebody over and you got blamed for it while you are at work. Should you get charged with manslaughter or just negligence. Even though you couldn't of done anything to stop it?

A safe isn't a sure fire way to keep somebody out. Most gun safes and cabinets are pretty damn easy to unlock. (Do a search opening gun safes with plastic straw).  Most people do not check how easy it is to break in to their own things. I suggest lawmakers put regulations on selling safe's that you know work.

Could you break into a safe? It seems a bit of a sweeping statement to say safe's aren't secure. Maybe some are not, for a cat burglar, but for your average Joe?

[ExpandMyMind]

questionmark, on 20 January 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

If a safe is easy to unlock then it hardly is a safe, right? And a simple safe with a simple Lagard key (double barbed) is not easy to pick... in fact most locksmiths have to drill it out. A job that takes hours if the safe is worth its money.

I just realised he was referring to a 'gun safe'. Apparently they are easier to break into. Something to do with their easy access for the owner in a time of crisis.