78 replies to this topic

[Harsh86_Patel]

http://www.omilosmel...ndology/IIR.pdf

[Harsh86_Patel]

You might like this L. A very comprehensive coverage of OIT.

http://www.voiceofdh...s/ait/index.htm

[TheSearcher]

Harsh86_Patel, on 23 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

You might like this L. A very comprehensive coverage of OIT.

http://www.voiceofdh...s/ait/index.htm

Just so you know, who you are actually talking about.

Koenraad Elst, may be a writer and orientalist, he is however also a right wing nationalist, very close to the Vlaams Belang (very right wing party in the Flanders, known for their xenophobia and ethnocentrism.) Seems he has a special hatred of Islam, as his views on Islam are markedly in line with the neoconservative think-tank "Middle East Forum", to which he has contributed.

[the L]

Thanks Harsh on links. Im short on time I just scan files, is there something you picked up from those links you want to share?
I read conclusions.

Searcher,

Okay lets forget about language isolate and IE.
What about Tocharians? ( Somehow I know that conversation after this post will cooled)

Whata about this conclusion:

Conclusion: We note a large number of words from Austro-Asiatic(Munda family) and Dravidian families in the Indo-European languageslocated as far away as West Europe. This is a big list. Some of them havebeen mentioned above. This could be only possible if the Indo-European journey started in India, having evolved over ages in neighborhood of these languages. Hence we can conclude, on the basis of linguisticanalysis that the Indo-European languages evolved in India from wherethey migrated out to various regions of the world.


http://www.scribd.co...rigins-in-India



What about this

Scholar Shrikant Talageri said that India isnt home of only one branch of IE languages, Indo Aryan. He claim that Prakrit languages dont have root from Rigvedic script. Prakrit languages  have similarities with other IE languages that also dont have roots in Sanskirt.
http://www.scribd.co...orical-Analysis


What about this


Prakrit languages show some similarites with Iranian and other Indo European languages which CAN NOT be found in Rigvedic scipts.
Here is people who claim that, Thomas Oberlies and Kenneth Roy Norman  who is a leading scholar of Middle Indo-Aryan or Prakrit, particularly of Pali. He spent most of his career teaching Prakrit at Cambridge University. (I didnt read those books just read that they claim it.)
Read here:
http://www.scribd.co...01-600dpi-Lossy
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


If IE home was Anatolia,where they dwelled?

If IE home was south Russia, where did they live?

I can tell you where IE live in OIT.

Edited by the L, 23 January 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Everdred]

I've been looking at a lot of the stuff posted in this thread, including the archaeological evidence in India that apparently doesn't show signs for an invasive culture, but rather continuity of general Harappan culture from early to late periods. But what about the other way?  Is there archaeological evidence for the migration of the Harappans into the areas that later attested IE cultures?

The two most popular theories, the Kurgan and Anatolian, are largely established on finding archaeologically-evidenced migrations that coincide with IE areas.  For example, the Kurgan hypothesis is based on expansions of culture evidenced through material remains like pottery types, weaponry, and of course the use of Kurgans for burial; the Anatolian hypothesis meanwhile is linked with the migration of farmers and associated agricultural objects and plants into Europe through the Balkans.  

So is there anything like these migrations attested for Harappans?  perhaps distinctive Harappan pottery types in Iran or Mesopotamia, or evidence for rice cultivation in Central Asia?

[the L]

Harappan Civilization (because first city which was discovered was Harappa) or Indus Valley Civilization was a Bronze Age civilization from 3300 to 1700 BC (when most ofcities were abandoned) but we know that some sites can be pushed to ( Bhirrana ) 7380 BC and that some sites were populated till 1300 BC. It was one of the largest civilizations with Jiroft, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Peru, China. Now, we often hear how Aryan invasion is myth by sceptics. Now we know why. Its old theory from 1953 proposed by Mortimer Wheeler. Now this is crucial. As evidence he used 37 skeletons found in Mohenjo Daro. Imagine that. Some suggest that they have had over 5 million population. I always thought that beside thier script and language big mystery is why IVC fall. Was it because social turmoil? Drought? Can population decline be reason? Could it be that people just left IVC and inhabitat central asia and Anatolia then Europe. Floods perhaps? We know that circa 1900 BC number of sites in India increased from 218 to 853. So if they went east who say that they didnt left west and north too earlier?
Harappans built their cities from bricks, they have had multi storied houses, drainage systems. Their were great craftsman in metallurgy. They work with copper, bronze, lead and Tin. Tin mines can be only found in Balkan, south England and Afghanistan. They are famous because of seals and undeciphered Indus script. And their unknown language. People now often link it witj Dravidian and Elamo Dravidiaan language. They were alos famous because their urban planing,water system and sanitation system, standar ratio of brick size, cremation of their dead and burial urns with ashes of theor ancestors.
What I found interesting is that more than 500 Harappan sites have been discovered along the dried up river beds of the Ghaggar-Hakra River and its tributaries, in contrast to only about 100 along the Indus and its tributaries.
Rakhigarhi (150 km from New Delhi) is largest Harappan site known in India and second largest in the subcontinent, after Mohenjodaro (there we found cubes for games see picture)  in Pakistan. Ofcourse there are Harappa, Lothal (On seal found there we can notice that they have had string instrument) , Dholavira, and Kalibangan.
So on one hand we have enormously big civilization with architecture and unknown language and on another hand enormosuly big civilization with language and without architecture.
They said that Harappans didnt have rulers and they all were equal. I doubt that but nevertheless. In Mohenjo Daro we can see big temple. So Im sure priests who were probably astronomers, doctors and so on have had better position in society.
I also wonder could we here on UM try to solve Indus script. It would be fun. Atleast that we try. We know that Egyptian hieroglyphs were peace of cake, literally. Obviously they have had wide range of symbols ,400-600 symbols, but typical Indus inscription have four or five symbols. Very short. Hard to find any context. Some seals wear swastika sign. There are similarities between the Proto-Elamite and the Indus script. But there are others similarites with Indus script such as script from Rapa Nui.
There are many artifacts found in IVC sites such as dancing girl. On many seals we dont know which animal that seal represent. Such as unicorns, half zebra half bull and so on.
I already post crossed legged sitting seal from Mohenjo Daro aka Pashupati. Some thinks that it represent Shiva. To me, I think that four faced gods in India, Slavic lands, Mesopotamia represent God which rules over animals. We know that people who work in wood in India wears mask behind their head because Tiger wont attack you from your front.  We now know that Brahma and slavic Perun have four faces. So one more connection.
One more thing.  Most sites around Ghaggar Hakra river are still not dated. Only few which say that they are 1200 BC. But who knows maybe they are older then that. Scientists found that isotopes of Ghagar Hakra dont come from Himalayan glaciers but from rain. So it seems that area was rainy. I wonder did they fall about as cultures in Green Sahara in 6th to 4th century?

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[the L]

Everdred, on 25 January 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Is there archaeological evidence for the migration of the Harappans into the areas that later attested IE cultures?

The two most popular theories, the Kurgan and Anatolian, are largely established on finding archaeologically-evidenced migrations that coincide with IE areas.  For example, the Kurgan hypothesis is based on expansions of culture evidenced through material remains like pottery types, weaponry, and of course the use of Kurgans for burial; the Anatolian hypothesis meanwhile is linked with the migration of farmers and associated agricultural objects and plants into Europe through the Balkans.  

So is there anything like these migrations attested for Harappans?  perhaps distinctive Harappan pottery types in Iran or Mesopotamia, or evidence for rice cultivation in Central Asia?

Kurgan is based on burial. Tulums.
I  think there is. Four faced god.
But I think bricks might be exported from IVC to Mesopotamia.

[jaylemurph]

Harsh86_Patel, on 22 January 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I don't think Jay will answer this. Since he does not subscribe to fringe and currently all these theories are fringe. Lol....fringe lunacy is very systemic in the mainstream i guess.Or probably mainstream opinions before getting the mainstream badge were also fringe.

Actually, no I will answer this. Somewhat. If I fail to repeat myself at your leisure or explain to your personal level of saitsfaction, forgive me. If you're that interested in my response to these questions, which has been posted numerous times on this forum, you are more than welcome to use the Search function. If you are unclear how it works, I'm sure harte will be happy to tutor you.

I do believe in the Kurgan hypothesis. Or rather, I understand the arguments from which it is made and agree with the findings of those who postulate it. I don't necessarily /believe/ it, as belief requires faith and I don't think that's called for in a rational study.

I actually agree with you: there is precious little hard evidence to be found, and as that is the case, a great deal of theory in the matter is speculation. And the speculation has to be taken lighly in direct proportion to the evidence found for it. However, I suspect the historical speculation is a great deal more informed than you are aware. You may want to look into some texts on the PIE history, culture and language -- Fortson's Indo-European Langauge and Culture: An Introduction is (as it implies) a good introduction to the subject that discusses the evidence, the speculation and the process of theorization currently going on in the field. From what I have read in the field, the people doing serious work are the first to state how theoretical it is, and how subject to correction it is.

It is generally the internet "fringe lunacy" reported (to use a generous term) by people like the L that claim some manner of superiority or correctness.

And your insistence on one field -- history -- over another field shows a plutot jejeune insistence on the breakdown of individual studies that I think you'll find does not really occur in advanced studies. You may also want to take some time to learn about historiography, if you're that convinced history and historians are always correct. (This may well help you to learn the difference between an archeaologist and a historian, since no historian -- by definition -- would be speculating about pre-literate, prehistoric cultures like the PIE ones.)

--Jaylemurph

[the L]

1.Burnt city dice-Jiroft-see next posts
2.Mohenjo daro dice

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[the L]

jaylemurph, on 25 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

snip

Cool story Jay. It would be correct you from that you answer on posts which you kindly ignored.


But you know how they say, ignorance is bliss.
By ignoring facts you will not preserve your utopia.

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[the L]

Mittani came in Mesopotamia about same time when Kurgan hypothesis said Aryan came in India.
If they came in India, where are evidence?


I will quote wiki here: Thus while the linguistic community stands firm with the Kurgan hypothesis archaeological community tends to be more agnostic.

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[the L]

This is streched but still...Maybe some members will help me here.

Sumerians:
It is a fabulously wealthy place full of gold, silver, lapis lazuli and other precious materials, as well as the artisans to craft them.
It is remote and difficult to reach.
It is home to the goddess Inana, who transfers her allegiance from Aratta to Uruk.
It is conquered by Enmerkar of Uruk.

Sumerians 3rd millenium BC spoke abot Aratti people from land called Aratta. Herodotus called Parthians Artaioi. Jirofta civilization was perfectly inter ancient geography.In the west, the road leads to future Elam and later Mesopotamia. In the east, the other path leads to Baluchistan and the Indus Valley in the east. North-east, we joined the road which goes into Sistan (Sokhteh Shahr-i), the Hindu Kush (Mundigak) and Bactria (Shortughaï), not forgetting the vicinity of the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. So Jiroft might have been Aratti. In Konar Sandal there are two citadels.  They also used bricks. And have had inscriptions. Some say its proto elamite. And there are people who link Elamite and Indus script.
Sumerians also wrote:
Shulgi and Ninlil's barge: "Aratta, full-laden with treasures"
Temple Hymns: Aratta is "respected"
The Kesh Temple Hymn: Aratta is"important"
Mahabharata also mentioned Aratta.


http://ivmp.wordpres...t-civilization/






(Thanks cormac for intorducing Jiroft to me)


In my next post I will TOTALY debunk Aryan invasion/migration in India. And provide interesting explaination for Indus script which sadly dont have nothing with OIT but I found it AMAZING.

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[the L]

Offtopic

Indus valley script and Rapa Nui script

http://www.ancient-w...indusvalley.htm

Edited by the L, 25 January 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[jaylemurph]

I'm still not sure what this point you're trying to make using Tocharian is. Maybe you would be kind enough to summarize or repeat this argument, as above it appears to be a statement confirming they existed.

If that's it, then, yeah. They existed. I do not disagree. But I don't see how the mere existence of one social group somehow justifies the Out of India theory.


Actually, the L, before we go on, can you tell me where you're from? This is beginning to have the stink of "my people secretly invented everything useful, ever" trope that regularly crops up on this forum. Or at least, used to. As in "the Irish invented ham", "medicine was discovered by the Belgians", or "basset hounds created writing, fiction and paper*". And India has more than its fair share of this**. If it's going to be some exercise in national chauvanism rather than an actual discussion where logic is a system and truth is a goal, than I'm going to beg off. If this is what this is/is devolving into, I can recommend all the linguistic texts in the world, and it won't change your mind, so I won't bother. (And I'm not saying that if you are Indian, then you can't have a rational discussion, but like I said, I've been down this road once too often to really feel the need to do so again.)

--Jaylemurph

*This is true, though.

**Which is not to say India is not diverse, fascinating place with a rich (actual) history. But I want to skip over the "Hindu gods had nukes 85,000 years ago" fol-de-rol.

[the L]

jaylemurph, on 26 January 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'm still not sure what this point you're trying to make using Tocharian is. Maybe you would be kind enough to summarize or repeat this argument, as above it appears to be a statement confirming they existed.

If that's it, then, yeah. They existed. I do not disagree. But I don't see how the mere existence of one social group somehow justifies the Out of India theory.


Actually, the L, before we go on, can you tell me where you're from? This is beginning to have the stink of "my people secretly invented everything useful, ever" trope that regularly crops up on this forum. Or at least, used to. As in "the Irish invented ham", "medicine was discovered by the Belgians", or "basset hounds created writing, fiction and paper*". And India has more than its fair share of this**. If it's going to be some exercise in national chauvanism rather than an actual discussion where logic is a system and truth is a goal, than I'm going to beg off. If this is what this is/is devolving into, I can recommend all the linguistic texts in the world, and it won't change your mind, so I won't bother. (And I'm not saying that if you are Indian, then you can't have a rational discussion, but like I said, I've been down this road once too often to really feel the need to do so again.)

--Jaylemurph

*This is true, though.

**Which is not to say India is not diverse, fascinating place with a rich (actual) history. But I want to skip over the "Hindu gods had nukes 85,000 years ago" fol-de-rol.

Thisonly indicate that you didnt read what I wrote in this thread. In post 3 I said where I from. In post 9 (among others) I presented why Tocharians are important.
Also if you want to know more about me here it is
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=241515


Now before we go on, can you please tell me where are you orginally from? Your origins? Parents, Granddads...

Perhaps, Ukraine or Russia?