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World's oldest flowing water discovered

timmins mine copper zinc water

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#16    goodgodno

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:47 PM

I'm not familar with the Timmins mine but I can say with 99% certainty that the aquifer they have found is a confined aquifer, meaning that there are at least one layers of low permeability geology overlaying it.  The isolation of the aquifer would mean that it would be relatively immune to recharge.  The fact that the water is so old supports the fact that there is neglible recharge into this aquifer, and also implies that there is relatively little output.  Therefore, I doubt that there is any hydraulic gradient at all (meaning it will not flow).  It is essentially what we tend to call fossil water that recharged this aquifer billions of years ago, possibly during a wet period prior to the tertiary.  Subsequently, over billions of years this isolcated little aquifer has been cut off from the world through various geological processes, until now.  I hope that the mine deals with this aquifer responsibly, since I suspect it will probably be yielding water solely from storage with no recharge (once its gone, its gone).


#17    Allterspace

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:38 AM

View PostSetton, on 19 May 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well that's simply not true...

Can't help thinking a lot of people watch way too many movies reading this thread.

Interesting find though :tu:
I would love to hear your your reason for disagreeing  with me. Please explain!


#18    Setton

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:42 AM

View PostAllterspace, on 20 May 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

I would love to hear your your reason for disagreeing  with me. Please explain!

Well, water forms and breaks up all the time. Dissolve anything in water and that's some gone. Likewise if you throw some free hydrogen and oxygen together, you'll form some more.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#19    goodgodno

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostAllterspace, on 20 May 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

I would love to hear your your reason for disagreeing  with me. Please explain!

View PostSetton, on 20 May 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Well, water forms and breaks up all the time. Dissolve anything in water and that's some gone. Likewise if you throw some free hydrogen and oxygen together, you'll form some more.

I think both of you are slightly misinformed and confused.  The onset of the age of groudwater starts from precipitation and percolation into groundwater.  In very basic terms, the water they have found last went through the hydrological cycle 2.64 billion years ago (2.64 billion year old rainwater).  The atmospheric tracers captured within the water from the time of recharge is what we measure to calculate the age.  For me, the most useful thing about aging groundwater is that it gives useful recharge estimations for water balances.  The fact that the water in Timmins mine has remained separate from modern day hydrological cycle has meant that the original composition and, therefore, microbiology should remain the same.

The major problem the mine has is that this aquifer will most likely need to be dewatered in order to proceed with mining (which, of course, the international scientific community would not allow).  If you own shares in Timmins mine, I would seriously consider selling them!

Edited by goodgodno, 20 May 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#20    Setton

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:58 AM

View Postgoodgodno, on 20 May 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I think both of you are slightly misinformed and confused.  The onset of the age of groudwater starts from precipitation and percolation into groundwater.  In very basic terms, the water they have found last went through the hydrological cycle 2.64 billion years ago (2.64 billion year old rainwater).  The atmospheric tracers captured within the water from the time of recharge is what we measure to calculate the age.  For me, the most useful thing about aging groundwater is that it gives useful recharge estimations for water balances.  The fact that the water in Timmins mine has remained separate from modern day hydrological cycle has meant that the original composition and, therefore, microbiology should remain the same.

The major problem the mine has is that this aquifer will most likely need to be dewatered in order to proceed with mining (which, of course, the international scientific community would not allow).  If you own shares in Timmins mine, I would seriously consider selling them!

With respect, holding a degree in this subject, I don't think I'm misinformed. Everything you've stated is correct but, unfortunately, has no bearing on what we were discussing. It sounds like you have begun to study hydrology but not really followed everything.

Edited by Setton, 21 May 2013 - 01:01 AM.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#21    goodgodno

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostSetton, on 21 May 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

With respect, holding a degree in this subject, I don't think I'm misinformed. Everything you've stated is correct but, unfortunately, has no bearing on what we were discussing. It sounds like you have begun to study hydrology but not really followed everything.

"Dissolve anything in water and thats gone" - this is misleading, the water does not reduce.  You have simply upped the concentration.

"Throw some free hydrogen and oxygen" - unfortunately this has no basis in nature and to actually do this artificially requires huge ammounts of energy.

I'm not sure what degree you have (chemistry maybe?), but I hold a degree in geology and a masters in hydrogeology along with 5 years experience of mining hydrogeology.  I deal with water issues in mines all over the world on a daily basis for my job.  I'd like to think that I followed on from my degree.


#22    Setton

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

View Postgoodgodno, on 21 May 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

"Dissolve anything in water and thats gone" - this is misleading, the water does not reduce.  You have simply upped the concentration.

"Throw some free hydrogen and oxygen" - unfortunately this has no basis in nature and to actually do this artificially requires huge ammounts of energy.

I'm not sure what degree you have (chemistry maybe?), but I hold a degree in geology and a masters in hydrogeology along with 5 years experience of mining hydrogeology.  I deal with water issues in mines all over the world on a daily basis for my job.  I'd like to think that I followed on from my degree.

My degree is in Environmental Geoscience with an integrated masters. Might I ask where you studied?

As to your claims, obviously, these were simplified for non-scientists but if you want it i full, here's an example:

Pyrite Oxidation:

FeS2 + 3.5O2 + H2O = Fe2+ + 2SO42- +2H+

As you can see, the amount of water molecules has fallen to be replaced by sulphuric acid. There are any number of similar reactions and, as someone in the mining industry, it's a little disturbing you don't seem to know them. To simplify it, they're what messes everything up after you've gone.

It does take a lot of energy to form water just from free molecules. As for 'has no basis in nature', what the hell's all this wet stuff then? A simpler way to form more water is reversing a reaction as mentioned above.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#23    goodgodno

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostSetton, on 21 May 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

My degree is in Environmental Geoscience with an integrated masters. Might I ask where you studied?

As to your claims, obviously, these were simplified for non-scientists but if you want it i full, here's an example:

Pyrite Oxidation:

FeS2 + 3.5O2 + H2O = Fe2+ + 2SO42- +2H+

As you can see, the amount of water molecules has fallen to be replaced by sulphuric acid. There are any number of similar reactions and, as someone in the mining industry, it's a little disturbing you don't seem to know them. To simplify it, they're what messes everything up after you've gone.

It does take a lot of energy to form water just from free molecules. As for 'has no basis in nature', what the hell's all this wet stuff then? A simpler way to form more water is reversing a reaction as mentioned above.

Now pyrite oxidation is a little more complex and we are delving into slight differences in definition.  Chemically you are absolutely right but the wider picture is that this sort of reaction just creates "contaminated water" which can be reversed using remediation techniques.  I deal with mine closure as well so am well aware of the legacy of mining (thanks for that snide comment, by the way), although admittedly we have geochemists who specialise specifically in AMD so my knowledge does fall short on this topic.


#24    Setton

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:04 PM

View Postgoodgodno, on 21 May 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Now pyrite oxidation is a little more complex and we are delving into slight differences in definition.  Chemically you are absolutely right but the wider picture is that this sort of reaction just creates "contaminated water" which can be reversed using remediation techniques.

The water ceases to be water. The fact that you call it that in mining for convenience does not change that. You can then create water from compounds such as sulphuric acid. My original point.

Quote

I deal with mine closure as well so am well aware of the legacy of mining (thanks for that snide comment, by the way),

Any time. Perhaps when people like me no longer have to tidy up your mess, we might gain some respect for you.

Quote

although admittedly we have geochemists who specialise specifically in AMD so my knowledge does fall short on this topic.

Hello :st

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#25    goodgodno

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:45 PM

You clearly don't have any grasp on the concept of hydrogeology and how to apply it to large groundwater problems.  The oxidation of pyrite, for example, at the end of the day is releasing H+ INTO THE WATER that that then lowers pH and maintains the solubility of ferric iron.  There is no magical transformation of the entire discharge, it is simply highly concentrated and highly contaminated.

Please, tell me a bit about yourself and your background in tidying up my mess?  As I have already mentioned, I also assist with closure planning which is so often a requirement nowadays.  If you are referring to historic mines that are currently polluting, I'm sorry but you are picking a fight with the wrong guy.  Try going back 50 years.


#26    Setton

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

View Postgoodgodno, on 21 May 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

You clearly don't have any grasp on the concept of hydrogeology and how to apply it to large groundwater problems.

Riight... Obviously four years at one of the top universities in the country studying precisely that, wouldn't teach any of that :rolleyes: I refer you to my earlier question, just where did you study?

Quote

The oxidation of pyrite, for example, at the end of the day is releasing H+ INTO THE WATER that that then lowers pH and maintains the solubility of ferric iron.  There is no magical transformation of the entire discharge, it is simply highly concentrated and highly contaminated.

And where did I say there was a transformation of the entire discharge? I said that water is created and destroyed constantly. Water is H2O. If you change H2O into anything else, even just one molecule, some water is destroyed. The reverse is also true.

Quote

Please, tell me a bit about yourself and your background in tidying up my mess?  

Again, not what I said. I imagine you're going to have an easy time arguing this if you just invent parts of the conversation. I said 'people like me'. I.e. those with an understanding of the environmental impacts of resource exploitation. I plan on becoming a teacher but, if that hadn't worked out, I'd be working for the EA.

Quote

As I have already mentioned, I also assist with closure planning which is so often a requirement nowadays.  If you are referring to historic mines that are currently polluting, I'm sorry but you are picking a fight with the wrong guy.  Try going back 50 years.

Amuse me. What's the latest method you've employed to supposedly stop a mine from polluting? I'm not a mining specialist, just as you are plainly not an environmental specialist, but all the mine closure and remediation techniques we covered that companies are willing to employ were focused on reducing the pollution (marginally) rather than actually avoiding it.

Edited by Setton, 21 May 2013 - 11:10 PM.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#27    goodgodno

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostSetton, on 21 May 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Riight... Obviously four years at one of the top universities in the country studying precisely that, wouldn't teach any of that :rolleyes: I refer you to my earlier question, just where did you study?



And where did I say there was a transformation of the entire discharge? I said that water is created and destroyed constantly. Water is H2O. If you change H2O into anything else, even just one molecule, some water is destroyed. The reverse is also true.



Again, not what I said. I imagine you're going to have an easy time arguing this if you just invent parts of the conversation. I said 'people like me'. I.e. those with an understanding of the environmental impacts of resource exploitation. I plan on becoming a teacher but, if that hadn't worked out, I'd be working for the EA.



Amuse me. What's the latest method you've employed to supposedly stop a mine from polluting? I'm not a mining specialist, just as you are plainly not an environmental specialist, but all the mine closure and remediation techniques we covered that companies are willing to employ were focused on reducing the pollution (marginally) rather than actually avoiding it.

Honestly, kid, I haven't got time for this.  If you want to learn more, find some work experience.


#28    Setton

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:54 PM

View Postgoodgodno, on 21 May 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Honestly, kid, I haven't got time for this.  If you want to learn more, find some work experience.

And yet you had time to jump in before... Interesting that you don't when someone asks hard questions.

Well, enjoy screwing up the planet. See if you can learn some chemistry while you're there.

Edited by Setton, 22 May 2013 - 12:55 PM.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#29    goodgodno

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

I would be happy to find time to talk to someone in a civilised manner and to share some of the details from our current projects.  Unfortunately, you feel the need to not only to prove a point with a somewhat aggressive overtone but also to insult me and attempt to belittle my education.  So no, I haven't got time for a kid who clearly has got a lot of growing up to do.  And also, don't come out with the line "I go to one of the top universities"... that really doesn't sit well with people, it will be hard enough for you to get a job in this economic climate as it is.

Edited by goodgodno, 22 May 2013 - 08:10 PM.


#30    Setton

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:17 PM

View Postgoodgodno, on 22 May 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

I would be happy to find time to talk to someone in a civilised manner and to share some of the details from our current projects.  Unfortunately, you feel the need to not only to prove a point with a somewhat aggressive overtone but also to insult me and attempt to belittle my education.  So no, I haven't got time for a kid who clearly has got a lot of growing up to do.  And also, don't come out with the line "I go to one of the top universities"... that really doesn't sit well with people, it will be hard enough for you to get a job in this economic climate as it is.

Given that your opening line was that I was misinformed and confused, you're in no position to judge. Especially given that I have not belittled your education. I asked a genuine question as to where you studied. Not out of any elitism, just genuine curiosity because it seems the teaching is very different to Durham.

As to saying I went to one of the top universities, why not? It's a statement of fact and I see no reason for false modesty. I worked damn hard and earned my place there. I'll take the reputation I worked for, thanks. Obviously I wouldn't say it in an interview. They can see it for themselves in my application. But when someone like you is pretending to be some oracle on something, it doesn't hurt to none of us are all-knowing.

And thanks for your employment advice but, as I've never had an unsuccessful interview and have a job lined up to start in September, I think I'll get by.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.





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