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#106    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:59 AM

View PostJor-el, on 28 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Mr. Walker,

Did you know that the immortality of man before the fall is a christian concept invented and extrapolated by Augustines fairly subjective interpretation of Romans 5:12? Before then nobody in their right mind had thought of such a thing, the Jews did not hold that belief at all, neither did the early christians before the 3rd century C.E.

Yet is was an essential part of the Doctrine of Original Sin, which again is not a biblical concept. This doctrine of Original Sin was masterminded by Augustine and has been a right royal pain in everyones life. It is also totally wrong.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Sin entered the world through the act of mankind, and death came to mankind because of sin, that is the essence of the verse above. Death comes to all men because we all become sinners. We are not born sinners, we become sinners.

But upon carful study of the verse, we also find that this event is ONLY speaking of mankind, not the rest of the natural world. The rules for mankind were different from the very beginning. They were charged with being the worlds stewards, to this end they lived in Eden, which was part of Gods Palace, so to speak. The bible speaks of Gods Holy Mountain, and Eden was located on it or near it. Within Eden there were two Trees, one the Tree of Life and two, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The text only disallows mankind from eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, never once is that interdiction referenced in relation to the Tree of Life.

When Adam and Eve are expelled from Eden it is to keep them from partaking of the Tree of Life, but that does not mean that they had not done so before their sin. They had what we can call "Conditional Immortality", they were not inherently immortal in their own right.

Basically what this tells us is that they were an exception to the rule, they were being kept alive and well, by artificial or outside means, under normal circumstances they would be sharing the fate of all natural creatures in the universe, death and decay.

People fail to realize that the death that entered the world, was the death to mankind, not death being introduced into the universe. Death is part of the natural order of the physical universe, without it, we could not even have stars and planets, much less life on earth.

The truth of the words of God are absolutely clear, it is our English translations that cause the misunderstanding...






מוֹת תָּמוּת
tamut mot

you shall die dying


Biblical Hebrew
For the information of the mere English reader, we remark that byom is formed from the particle b, which is here a proposition as well as a prefix; and yom which signifies day, definite, or otherwise, according to the context.

Bayt or b has many countersigns in our language, among which are in, against, to, after, etc. We have selected from these the last. B or Bayt is used in this sense in Numb. 28:26, where it is prefixed to the word sebothikam, which is rendered 'after your weeks;' ie, your weeks having expired, or from the expiration of your weeks, 'ye shall have a holy convocation;' so in the case before us, 'after the day of the eating,' or the day of the eating having passed; or, 'from the day of thy eating dying thou shalt die.'

Not, "on the day", but rather "after the day".

As to the phrase 'dying you shall die,' no criticism is needed; for it is admitted as the correct rendering on every side.

As such the correct interpretation is not a literal 24 hour period where death would occur after disobedience. It is quite clearly an expression that death would come to them over time, but they would most certainly die. Dying, you shall die. We all are dying at this very moment, little by little, cell by cell.

Mankind was never created immortal, what kept Adam and Eve from dying was access to the tree of life, when that access was denied, they proceeded to age and die.

A philosophical question, how could a command not to eat under a penalty of death have been motivation if they did not even know what death was? For me, they knew exactly what it was, they saw death often in the natural course of things, they were just exempt from it by the partaking of the Tree of Life. (which being a figure of Jesus Christ, who is the eternal giver of life, makes alot more sense than doing away with all the natural laws of the universe.)

I actually agree with you about the tree of life  and how removal from it caused a slow death. That meets god's precise promise, as you point out, but that only highlights the condition in which man was created; immortal. The immortality was removed when he was removed from access to the tree of life, or perhaps, actually, to his connection with god . With  the god of the bible story,  even mortality and immortality is his to command and to alter. Conditional if you like. It is always conditional  on god's grace, but existent in his creation of humanity.

As to the rest of nature at that time, it is guess work. Revelation describes a world where death and decay do not occur, Adam and eve ate fruit and  nuts. In our physics, for fruit and nuts to occur, there must be growth, and hence death and decay, but if the new earth can exist without such things, then so could eden, in  a state where modern physics did not apply, and fruit and nuts perpetually existed without growth or decay.

To believe in the creation story of genesis  at all, requires belief big enough to accept the creative powers of a being quite able to order physical laws at his will, and to make a world as he wanted it to be. Ohterwise we get bogged down in arguments like "How did the human body process the food it ate without bacterial processes involving death and decay?" The easy answer is of course  thatthe writers had no knowledge of such things. The harder one is that things were very differnt then. And in any creationists world view, indeed the wolrd WAS very different then, and will be again

As a non biblical literalist, i can only interpret and make sense of the bible from the words within it, as a story told and received several millenia ago  The idea of the immortality of man at creation is an idea inherent in the bible story itself. I only read the bible after I was an adult, educated in a number of disciplines at university including; literature, politics, geography, history, psychology and some sociology, and that concept was perfectly clear to me  , without any outside knowledge or understanding,  but simply from the text of the bible itself

The story does not make sense without immortality as a condition of both creation, and ultimately recreation.  Man ends up where he began, in the new eden, restored to a relationship with god, and to his original immortal condition. Jesus is a template/archetype of this condition; immortality, mortality/death, resurrection and immortality.

Now a jew might not quite see the whole thing the same way, but a christian, or a person simply reading the whole bible, must interpret holistically the bible, from alpha to omega, in order to make their best interpretation of what it is saying. I am possibly wrong, but thats my best interpretation, and i do not "need validation" from historical interpretations  to deconstruct a piece of literature.  .

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 December 2012 - 01:09 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#107    Paranoid Android

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

View Postblind pew, on 28 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

I'm just going by what the bible says, I quote "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you" Luke 11:9 I didnt see any small print that said only when it feels like it or you need to wait several decades etc..etc..
Then it appears you didn't read the quote thoroughly:

Quote

Luke 11:9-13

9“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Note in particular from verse 11 and 12 that the comparisons are to food, necessities of life.  Fish, eggs... and the parallel account of this verse in Matthew 7 includes bread.  Once you have done that note verse 13 - God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask.  In context you can see that "Ask and it shall be given to you" is referring to asking for the Holy Spirit, arguably a necessity for spiritual life (like the eggs and fish and bread are necessities for physical life).

Call it the "small print" if you will (it's not small at all, but let's pretend), but Luke 11 is referring to God giving the gift of the Holy Spirit to all who ask for it.

~ Regards, PA


Edited by Paranoid Android, 29 December 2012 - 01:19 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#108    blind pew

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

Then it appears you didn't read the quote thoroughly:

[sup]
Note in particular from verse 11 and 12 that the comparisons are to food, necessities of life.  Fish, eggs... and the parallel account of this verse in Matthew 7 includes bread.  Once you have done that note verse 13 - God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask.  In context you can see that "Ask and it shall be given to you" is referring to asking for the Holy Spirit, arguably a necessity for spiritual life (like the eggs and fish and bread are necessities for physical life).

Call it the "small print" if you will (it's not small at all, but let's pretend), but Luke 11 is referring to God giving the gift of the Holy Spirit to all who ask for it.

~ Regards, PA
meh


#109    Paranoid Android

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:39 AM

View Postblind pew, on 29 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

meh
Thanks for the insight into who you are, I'll keep it in mind in the future :tu:

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 29 December 2012 - 07:40 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#110    Jor-el

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 December 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

I actually agree with you about the tree of life  and how removal from it caused a slow death. That meets god's precise promise, as you point out, but that only highlights the condition in which man was created; immortal. The immortality was removed when he was removed from access to the tree of life, or perhaps, actually, to his connection with god . With  the god of the bible story,  even mortality and immortality is his to command and to alter. Conditional if you like. It is always conditional  on god's grace, but existent in his creation of humanity.

As to the rest of nature at that time, it is guess work. Revelation describes a world where death and decay do not occur, Adam and eve ate fruit and  nuts. In our physics, for fruit and nuts to occur, there must be growth, and hence death and decay, but if the new earth can exist without such things, then so could eden, in  a state where modern physics did not apply, and fruit and nuts perpetually existed without growth or decay.

To believe in the creation story of genesis  at all, requires belief big enough to accept the creative powers of a being quite able to order physical laws at his will, and to make a world as he wanted it to be. Ohterwise we get bogged down in arguments like "How did the human body process the food it ate without bacterial processes involving death and decay?" The easy answer is of course  thatthe writers had no knowledge of such things. The harder one is that things were very differnt then. And in any creationists world view, indeed the wolrd WAS very different then, and will be again

As a non biblical literalist, i can only interpret and make sense of the bible from the words within it, as a story told and received several millenia ago  The idea of the immortality of man at creation is an idea inherent in the bible story itself. I only read the bible after I was an adult, educated in a number of disciplines at university including; literature, politics, geography, history, psychology and some sociology, and that concept was perfectly clear to me  , without any outside knowledge or understanding,  but simply from the text of the bible itself

The story does not make sense without immortality as a condition of both creation, and ultimately recreation.  Man ends up where he began, in the new eden, restored to a relationship with god, and to his original immortal condition. Jesus is a template/archetype of this condition; immortality, mortality/death, resurrection and immortality.

Now a jew might not quite see the whole thing the same way, but a christian, or a person simply reading the whole bible, must interpret holistically the bible, from alpha to omega, in order to make their best interpretation of what it is saying. I am possibly wrong, but thats my best interpretation, and i do not "need validation" from historical interpretations  to deconstruct a piece of literature.  .

There are new Heavens and a new Earth at the end in Revelation 21..


Revelation 21


A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

To me at least, this means a new creation, a new creation means a new universe, with its own set of laws. What is there is not even remotely connected to our present universe. In effect it is not a return to Eden, it is only similar in some respects.

Posted Image


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#111    Insaniac

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

This coming from somebody whose avatar resembles the Luciferian 'Square and Compass.'

A symbol directly related to Luciferian/Freemason worship. Both of which are related to the Illuminati, who have experimented on more people, slaughtered more innocents, and molested more children than anybody else in the world.

"He is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened their heart against Him, and succeeded"? ~ Job 9:4

#112    JGirl

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 29 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

This coming from somebody whose avatar resembles the Luciferian 'Square and Compass.'

A symbol directly related to Luciferian/Freemason worship. Both of which are related to the Illuminati, who have experimented on more people, slaughtered more innocents, and molested more children than anybody else in the world.
proof?


#113    Insaniac

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View PostJGirl, on 29 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

proof?

Difficult to find considering the Illuminati run the system we live in, but I've found a great site.

http://macpc.org.au/site/

It's all linked. CIA, pedophilia, New World Order, child abuse, so on and so forth.

These are the sorts of people that hide from the truth, for they have to exercise these dark practises in total secrecy, in order to avoid facing a prison sentence.

"He is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened their heart against Him, and succeeded"? ~ Job 9:4

#114    hooko22

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:57 PM

View Postblind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

Worship me and I'll give ya a cookie! A divine cookie!  :innocent:

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#115    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 29 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:



This coming from somebody whose avatar resembles the Luciferian 'Square and Compass.'

A symbol directly related to Luciferian/Freemason worship. Both of which are related to the Illuminati, who have experimented on more people, slaughtered more innocents, and molested more children than anybody else in the world.
I'll make sure I keep my tinfoil hat ready just incase they are reptilian aliens aswell.

Edited by Seeker79, 29 December 2012 - 08:19 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#116    Rlyeh

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 29 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Difficult to find considering the Illuminati run the system we live in, but I've found a great site.

http://macpc.org.au/site/

It's all linked. CIA, pedophilia, New World Order, child abuse, so on and so forth.

These are the sorts of people that hide from the truth, for they have to exercise these dark practises in total secrecy, in order to avoid facing a prison sentence.
They also turn into reptilians and eat people.


#117    White Crane Feather

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 29 December 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

They also turn into reptilians and eat people.
Oh crap I just edited to ad that bit.

Edited by Seeker79, 29 December 2012 - 08:19 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#118    JGirl

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 29 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Difficult to find considering the Illuminati run the system we live in, but I've found a great site.

http://macpc.org.au/site/

It's all linked. CIA, pedophilia, New World Order, child abuse, so on and so forth.

These are the sorts of people that hide from the truth, for they have to exercise these dark practises in total secrecy, in order to avoid facing a prison sentence.
omg get a grip
this is a conspiracy site.


#119    Jor-el

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostJGirl, on 29 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

omg get a grip
this is a conspiracy site.

Aren't they all? ;)

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#120    JGirl

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostJor-el, on 29 December 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Aren't they all? ;)
i can't believe the number of people who fall for this crap.
government suck a lot of times, but to accuse them of these atrocities is baseless and ridiculous





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