Agnostics, take a stand.

[Vfr]

(...) writes:

Edit; removed crude observation. Agnosticism seems like a very reasonable "transition" position. But it doesn't seem like anyone should stay in that position for long. In fact, the most likely way that someone would remain agnostic for a long period of time (e.g. more than a year) would be if that person really didn't believe in god, but was too scared of death / too scared of social rejection / too weak to admit it.

When you come down to it, there is almost nothing more important in life than the question of "is there a god", and "if there is a god, what is it like"? After all, if there's a god there might be a heaven and hell - and ANY measure of utility says that an infinitely long infinitely good life rules, and an infinitely long infinitely bad life sucks. If there is a god, he might send you to hell because you don't believe in him, and so you need to understand god in order to have an eternity of bliss.

So who in their right mind would say "hmm, I don't know if god exists or not. I'll just go on about my life until I figure it out later." HELL no! You say "holy crap, this is a really important question, and I need to sit down and think about it NOW!

I was an agnostic for a few months. But during those months I was actively thinking about the whole "god" issue. The issue is actually pretty cut-and-dry if you sit down and think about it objectively. Thus, I transitioned quickly and easily into full-blown atheism. Anyone who has been agnostic for any extended period of time should consider growing a pair and doing the same."

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V:

Yes, atheists commonly call agnostics 'atheists without a backbone.'

I do not claim to know if God Yahweh exists or not. Neither does any others claim I've seen on the subject settle the matter for me.

I am agnostic, although I lean about 85% that God is created by man.

But I also have about 15% doubt in me that says I may be wrong.

If that makes me spineless or a ***** by another's view...so what.

Calling me names does not add to the discussion of whether God exists or not.

I can assure you I have spent many thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours studying this question over the years. In addition, many agnostics come from the realm of philosophy professors at great universities. They have studied this question even more than myself and cannot come to a conclusion so 'sitting down and thinking about' it is not the problem. Agnostics have thought about this while sitting, standing, sleeping and even on the toilet. The problem is not in thinking, it is with the data we have to decide the question with.

I am at peace with my 'best efforts' with my search for God and wish the atheists could be at peace with it as well. When we spend our time trying to change others it is a signpost of our own dis-ease. Alan Watts use to say we define ourselves by our enemies. We define ourselves by what we are not. He used the example of 'Beatniks and Squares' which were the in fad opposites back in his day. So of course it is natural for this group or that to view themselves as polar opposites.

As such the various groups must make the opposing group lower than themselves in order to constantly build up their ego and pride. For if one group was viewed as better than the group one was in, it would destroy their way of thinking...they would lose their identity. It is human nature to put our pride in being right and making the other person wrong.

That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can let go of ego and attachments for a moment and look at the tools at hand without prejudice. We can think for ourselves finally. As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and useless.

Again, a freethinker is 'free to decide' how they wish to proceed. Just be careful of falling into the trap of 'mind manacled freethinker' as many ego based people fall into. And this especially applies to atheists who are notorious for falling into this trap. Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."

A conversation with a science based atheist:

V:

"We should always be interested in finding truth and peace. For instance, in the bible it says "Test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil," (1 Thess. 5:21)" If our way is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and see the results and not get caught up in prejudice blocking the way. For with such tests, 'the proof of the pudding will be in the eating' and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but will be grounded in peace."

N responds:

"That quote is meaningless to me, I view "evil" as a religious (Christian) term, and I'm an atheist. I'm not interested in vague horoscopish parables like the ones you spout. When I do bother to derive meaning from them I usually roll my eyes and think "this person is the master of the bleedin' obvious," to paraphrase a certain fictional British twit. I think you're fooling yourself. I don't think you have any ties to any particular religion because you want to be worshipped like a god yourself. The other gods are competition. You want US to be spiritual, and to regard you with religious awe If you're interested in truth then study science and forget trying to set yourself up as an object of worship."

(quotes condensed)

I've included some test results below to illustrate that agnostics generally do not believe as theists or atheists do and are a true category of their own.

We can see the graphic difference below in core values between an agnostic freethinker like myself and an atheist and some theists. The atheists values contain many more zeros, where mine are more balanced, but not as balanced as some theists. In short we do not all think alike and we can see there is quite difference between what we all think.

All test results from: http://www.selectsmart.com/PRO/beliefnet/index1.html

My results - Agnostic Freethinker:

1. Secular Humanism (100%)

2. Unitarian Universalism (89%)

3. Nontheist (84%)

4. Liberal Quakers (67%)

5. Theravada Buddhism (64%)

6. Neo-Pagan (50%)

7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (45%)

8. Taoism (37%)

9. Orthodox Quaker (34%)

10. Jainism (32%)

11. New Age (30%)

12. Bahá'í Faith (27%)

13. Mahayana Buddhism (27%)

14. Seventh Day Adventist (23%)

15. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (19%)

16. Hinduism (19%)

17. Reform Judaism (19%)

18. Sikhism (19%)

19. Eastern Orthodox (16%)

20. Islam (16%)

21. Orthodox Judaism (16%)

22. Roman Catholic (16%)

23. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (15%)

24. Jehovah's Witness (11%)

25. Scientology (6%)

26. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (3%)

27. New Thought (3%)

Results from an Atheist - Satanist:

1. Nontheist (100%)

2. Secular Humanism (100%)

3. Theravada Buddhism (70%)

4. Unitarian Universalism (70%)

5. Neo-Pagan (47%)

6. Liberal Quakers (40%)

7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (18%)

8. New Age (18%)

9. Taoism (17%)

10. Bahá'í Faith (0%)

11. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (0%)

12. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (0%)

13. Eastern Orthodox (0%)

14. Hinduism (0%)

15. Islam (0%)

16. Jainism (0%)

17. Jehovah's Witness (0%)

18. Mahayana Buddhism (0%)

19. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (0%)

20. New Thought (0%)

21. Orthodox Judaism (0%)

22. Orthodox Quaker (0%)

23. Reform Judaism (0%)

24. Roman Catholic (0%)

25. Scientology (0%)

26. Seventh Day Adventist (0%)

27. Sikhism (0%)

Results from a Protestant Christian;

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)

2. Bahá'í Faith (76%)

3. Liberal Quakers (73%)

4. Reform Judaism (67%)

5. Unitarian Universalism (67%)

6. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (66%)

7. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (63%)

8. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (57%)

9. Neo-Pagan (54%)

10. New Age (52%)

11. Orthodox Quaker (51%)

12. Sikhism (51%)

13. New Thought (50%)

14. Orthodox Judaism (48%)

15. Jehovah's Witness (46%)

16. Eastern Orthodox (42%)

17. Roman Catholic (42%)

18. Secular Humanism (40%)

19. Mahayana Buddhism (39%)

20. Scientology (39%)

21. Theravada Buddhism (38%)

22. Islam (36%)

23. Seventh Day Adventist (34%)

24. Taoism (33%)

25. Jainism (28%)

26. Hinduism (24%)

27. Nontheist (22%)

Results from a Jew

1. Reform Judaism (100%)

2. Sikhism (93%)

3. Liberal Quakers (80%)

4. Orthodox Judaism (78%)

5. Bahá'í Faith (74%)

6. Unitarian Universalism (74%)

7. Islam (73%)

8. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (68%)

9. Neo-Pagan (61%)

10. Jainism (58%)

11. Mahayana Buddhism (53%)

12. New Age (53%)

13. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (52%)

14. Hinduism (50%)

15. Orthodox Quaker (49%)

16. New Thought (45%)

17. Scientology (44%)

18. Jehovah's Witness (41%)

19. Theravada Buddhism (41%)

20. Eastern Orthodox (38%)

21. Roman Catholic (38%)

22. Secular Humanism (37%)

23. Seventh Day Adventist (36%)

24. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (34%)

25. Taoism (33%)

26. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (27%)

27. Nontheist (21%)

Good Luck,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker

Vfr, lets keep the comments civil please. Thank you for your co-operation.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Magikman

[GoddessWhispers]

Twiffy, is that you!? Well, of course it is: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/viewt...b6c8ee4cac59194

[Zackeous]

I'm not sure exactly what the full intention of your post is, but I'd like to describe my situation. I'm agnostic, and in a way I feel proud to know that I don't know everything. I've noticed some atheists talking about studying science for truth, as if it's the only truth. The problem I have with that is, there's a lot that science doesn't know. If you look at the history of science, there was a lot of unknown, that was discovered and explained through science, and I'm totally open to that possible inevitability. At the same time, that possibility could very well be impossible, at least for modern science and any relation I may have to it.

I apply that ....I guess philosophy or idea to my thoughts on god. I definitely disregard all religions and gods through out human history, they're absolutely silly to me. Yet again though, I think about the paradox? of absolute nothing. No me, no you, no earth , no stars, no elements, no light , etc. I try to understand how that nothing, can become something. Current scientific theories on the origin of everything (universe), are definitely interesting, but just as any scientific idea, or process, can be questioned, I'll leave them as a number of possibilities, especially since there is lot to be "discovered".

Meow, that agnostics are just atheists without backbone idea, I disagree with to some extant. Based on what I've seen in agnostics, most don't have the same ideas, and especially me, but I can see how some are afraid of theists being right. I'm not afraid of my death, and I'm not afraid of the possibility of their being a god or supreme being, especially if it would be one similar to Yahweh, expecting me to worship. As far as I'm concerned my morals, ideas, etc, will always accompany me where ever I am. So the idea of worship would never cross my mind. I'm not exactly sure what I'd have to be growing a "pair" for, as I don't really fear the unknown. As a matter of fact, I absolutely welcome it, be it scientific, or supernatural. To me, just as goals in life, there are endless possibilities.

Regardless of the outcome of my life, I will always question everything. I like to observe for myself and come to my own conclusion. Just as well, I'm open to any and every idea.

For the last 12 years or so I've kind of made my own descriptions of atheists/theists/agnostics.

Theist- " I know A is right "

Atheist- " I know A is wrong, I know B is wrong, I know C is wrong, I know D is wrong, etc. "

Agnostic- " I don't know "

[Reincarnated]

Anyone who has been agnostic for any extended period of time should consider growing a pair and doing the same.

I stopped reading right there...

[Winged_Embrace]

i don't really know what i'd call my belief system. i know for a fact that some hight power is out there, but i'm not going to be arrogant enough to say 'hey, this is who it is!' that's just stupid. we don't know. that's just how it is. i don't believe in the christian god, basically becasue the entire religion has been taken from religions before it. but hey, i could be wrong. he could exist (though i doubt it) but to say we have no backbone? that's not only inaccurate, but ignorant as well. we dont' know what comes after death, no one's come back to tell us straight up what will happen. so i belive in what i will, and when my time comes i will know the truth. it could be bad, it could be good. i don't know, and neither does the rest of the world, no matter how we wish it otherwise.