WPC kicked unconscious by 30-strong drunken

[chemical-licker]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

WPC kicked unconscious by 30-strong drunken teenage gang for asking them not to throw popcorn on a tram

By JAYA NARAIN - More by this author » Last updated at 13:22pm on 28th April 2008 As a former policewoman, Julie Pickford thought she knew how to deal with a gang of rowdy teenagers on a tram.

So when she asked one boy politely but firmly to stop throwing popcorn at fellow passengers she was confident the unruly gang would behave.

But nothing - not even a career in the police force - could have prepared her for the shocking and violent attack that followed.

Without warning, one girl stood up and punched her in the face and then a mob of up to 30 teenagers joined in, punching and stamping on her.

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Julie Pickford suffered a suspected fractured eye socket, a cut lip, bruising and grazes

Mrs Pickford, 47, a mother-of-two, who has a judo black belt, was powerless to stop the attack and briefly blacked out.

With blood streaming from her injuries and £50 stolen from her handbag, she was thrown off the tram at the next stop.

She was taken to hospital with a suspected fracture to her eye socket, a badly cut mouth and severe bruising and grazes.

Mrs Pickford, who runs a commercial property firm, was discharged the next day but went back to hospital after she began passing blood because of suspected kidney damage.

The attack had chilling echoes of the murder of Garry Newlove, 47, who was kicked to death last year when he challenged a gang of drunken youths who he believed had vandalised a car outside his home in Warrington, Cheshire.

Last night Mrs Pickford, who spent three years with Greater Manchester Police, warned that more innocent people would be killed by violent teenage gangs unless tough action was taken.

She said: "I'm an innocent member of the public and they were a pack of animals. It's come to something when you can't travel on the tram at nine at night.

"Thank goodness it was me. I'm a fit and healthy woman. Had it been someone a bit older it could have been another Garry Newlove. Those idiots could easily have kicked somebody to death.

"With Garry Newlove, I thought, 'How could a grown man of his stature get killed?' Now I know. They were animals. They are fit young people and if they can get you on the ground you don't stand a chance."

It is believed the gang behind the mini riot may have been attending an illegal rave in Sale, Greater Manchester on Friday night.

Mrs Pickford, from Northwich, Cheshire, whose husband Mark, 46, is a production manager for an aviation company, has two grown-up sons aged 22 and 25 and an 11-year-old stepdaughter.

She was making her way home after a night out with work colleagues when the gang of about 30 attacked her after she told one to stop throwing popcorn at fellow passengers on the tram.

The former constable, who was sitting on the Altrincham-bound tram, added: "A young girl came flying forwards towards me and unfortunately I wasn't quick enough and she punched me in the mouth. I fell to the floor.

"Then all of them started kicking me around the floor of the tram. I'm very fit for my age and I can look after myself. The tram doors opened and I was kicked off the tram on to the platform with no shoes on.

"They were like a pack of animals, screaming and hammering on the windows. I can still see the face of the girl who punched me in the window screaming. She must have been on drink or drugs. I was lying there covered in blood. They threw my handbag on to the platform. They had taken £50."

Police arrested a 15-year-old girl on suspicion of assault and questioned her before releasing her on bail pending further enquiries.

Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Authority, which owns Metrolink, has ordered an inquiry into the attack and recent trouble on the network.

what a bunch of hyenas.

[1.618]

Manchester eh?

[Bill Hill]

Shocking.

Like hyenas

Like this ....'insert word'

I knew he plead 'insanity....' when it was a racist murder...... funny how when it's the black on white, they're classified as 'paranoid schizophrenics'

Even though he'd been involved in a sexual assault... and robbery earlier..

LONDON (Reuters) -

A paranoid schizophrenic was ordered to be detained indefinitely on Friday for killing a bus passenger who had tried to stop him throwing chips at his girlfriend.

Anthony Joseph, 23, from Islington, north London, admitted manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility last month.

He had been formally acquitted of murder after two Old Bailey juries failed to agree a verdict.

Events manager Richard Whelan, 28, from Kentish Town, was stabbed seven times, including once through the heart, on the top of a double-decker in Holloway, north London, in July 2005.

Joseph, who had been taking drink and drugs before the attack, should have been in custody but was released by mistake, it emerged later.

The government announced an investigation into "a number of failings" in the justice system as a whole following the case.

Ordering him to be detained at Broadmoor secure hospital on Friday without time limit under the Mental Health Act, Mr Justice Gross said: "The circumstances of this case are tragic indeed. They form the nightmare of all those who use public transport."

Edited April 28, 2008 by Bill Hill

[BlitzKrieg]

damn that sucks....I came all happy and eager because i misread the topic title. i read WBC, as in Westboro Baptist Church, kicked unconscious by 30-strong,

[Ignus Fatuus]

each of these gang members should have citric acid dropped into their eyeballs. If any of their parents come to their aid pointing fingers at the woman they should get worse.

[chemical-licker]

damn that sucks....I came all happy and eager because i misread the topic title. i read WBC, as in Westboro Baptist Church, kicked unconscious by 30-strong,

[The Other Guy]

A good time to be armed?..

[sam12six]

I think if she'd just been an innocent civilian, she would have known how to talk to people. She says she told the boy "politely but firmly" what to do.

Um, that's how she learned to talk to people during her police training. They convinced her that she knew how to handle a crowd, and that rowdy people are all just cowards who will back down from someone who is confident enough. Nobody ever told her "polite but firm" ticks people off and the only reason people don't universally react badly to it from cops is that they don't want to deal with the legal consequences.

I'm not condoning the kid throwing popcorn at someone (assuming we're talking about some innocent passenger and not one of the other "gang members"). I'm not even condoning them giving her the beat-down she asked for. I'm just saying she got an object lesson in what can happen when you walk around giving total strangers "polite but firm" orders.

[Promethius]

Sadly "politely but firmly" doesnt seem to cut it any more...

If i'm ever assaulted by teenagers i'd rather take more extreme measures...

[The Unseen]

Hate to say this for the fear from fellow UMers but;I think that those punk a$$ kids should be killed on site and the female gang members should all be stoned to death.All it would take would be for US as human beings to start to kill gang members on sight and believe me the gangs would be hiding from their victims , but we all know it would be nice but it wouldnt happen.IMO.

[sam12six]

All it would take would be for US as human beings to start to kill gang members on sight and believe me the gangs would be hiding from their victims

I've always said much the same of police officers. There are more of us than them, if everybody did their part and killed just 1, soon there wouldn't be any left.

How about those greedy Jews? We could get rid of all them too...

These kids broke the law. They should pay the price for what they did as the law dictates. It's silly to talk about stoning people to death and mass murder because you don't like someone's attitude.

[GreyWeather]

String them all.

See, if you hit the gang members back. They cry assault and you get arrested. They assault you, the police are too scared to do anything about it.

Moral; Beat people to death to get away with it when you're arrested for 10 minutes, while screaming like a rabid disease.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Chokmah

[InHuman]

I'm starting to think the U.K has a problem with drunk teenagers...

just a guess..

[Roughneck]

How about those greedy Jews? We could get rid of all them too...

Because Jews always beat-up model citizens?

[InHuman]

Hate to say this for the fear from fellow UMers but;I think that those punk a$$ kids should be killed on site and the female gang members should all be stoned to death.All it would take would be for US as human beings to start to kill gang members on sight and believe me the gangs would be hiding from their victims , but we all know it would be nice but it wouldnt happen.IMO.

lawl, you just described a gang war..

MOB RULE FTW!

[sam12six]

I'll avoid bringing Palestinian citizens into this. You aren't being a model citizen by walking onto a train and bossing people around when you have no legal authority to do so. Sometimes people are disturbing the peace. You or I are free to step up and tell them to sit down and shut up, but we'd be idiots if we didn't acknowledge that there is a possiblity the person says, "Make me!" and punches us in the face.

Thing is - what these kids did is illegal. What they did was rude, too. For what it's worth, I think the woman was rude too - I think it's always rude to tell people what to do when you don't have the authority to do so.

The point I was trying to make was more along the lines of: Everybody has some form of conduct they don't like. Even if it's just wearing big hats in the front row of a movie theater. It doesn't make that conduct a capital offense punishable by torture or death.

As for these particular kids, maybe they were a mob of psychotic lunatics. I wasn't there, so I can't say. If they were a "gang"-gang, I could see everybody in the freaking train jumping the woman. To me, it just seems strange that 30 people took turns beating her down and didn't manage to kill her. Since the cops only went after 1 girl according to the original post, I'd be curious how many people were actually involved in the attack.

Because Jews always beat-up model citizens?

[EtuMalku]

Wait a minute, this was a former police woman?

What a dumbass cop she must have been. I mean, come on, a little common sense here. Talk about an ego . . . oh, look 30 drunk teenagers, let me go put the fear of God into them. Mo mo.

[Roughneck]

I'll avoid bringing Palestinian citizens into this.

Ahahaha. Please.

You aren't being a model citizen by walking onto a train and bossing people around when you have no legal authority to do so.

...

I think it's always rude to tell people what to do when you don't have the authority to do so.

But gangs of kids have the right to annoy people and then beat them unconscious when politely asked not to do so?

Sometimes people are disturbing the peace. You or I are free to step up and tell them to sit down and shut up, but we'd be idiots if we didn't acknowledge that there is a possiblity the person says, "Make me!" and punches us in the face.

I think you didn't read the entire article, notably the "So when she asked one boy politely but firmly to stop throwing popcorn at fellow passengers she was confident the unruly gang would behave." part.

I mean c'mon, if someone threw popcorn at me, I'd eat it and thank them. But if I asked them politely to stop it, that warrants thirty people ganging up on me and beating me unconscious?

The point I was trying to make was more along the lines of: Everybody has some form of conduct they don't like. Even if it's just wearing big hats in the front row of a movie theater. It doesn't make that conduct a capital offense punishable by torture or death.

That's a great straw-man. Too bad it's not relevant to what we're talking about.

[sam12six]

I don't think it's a straw man at all. People are talking about going to war because they don't approve of the behavior of these people. It doesn't matter what we think as individuals, they committed a crime (if you'll notice, I certainly acknowledged that). That said, the woman wasn't an innocent victim. She took it upon herself to firmly tell people what to do. They (illegally) demonstrated to her why she doesn't have the juice to tell people what to do.

In your example of someone throwing popcorn at you and asking them to stop, then being ganged up on by 30 people, I just don't believe it could happen this way. I don't believe the woman's story about how things happened, either. I've been around (and part of, at times) mobs of drunk young people. I've been around real gangs and hung with them. It would be pretty impossible (assuming you weren't someone they knew and didn't like) to politely ask them to stop throwing popcorn and have everyone in the area immediately jump you.

I'd be willing to bet she either said something to the effect of people like them being the ruination of our world, or mentioned the black belt in judo she's so proud of and pointed out that she would MAKE them do what she said. The alternative possibility I see is that one or 2 of the little girls handed her @ss to her and she's too embarrassed to admit it, so it was suddenly a train full of hoodlums howling for her death.

I've been in many fights growing up. I once put a man in the hospital for a week, that required about 30 seconds of effort. I still don't believe that many people could have taken a shot and not killed the woman.

Regardless, the bottom line is whether it was one 15 year old girl, or a trainful of psychos pumped full of PCP who attacked her, they broke the law. It was assault. The law has existing penalties for such rude conduct.

She was still asking for it. If I go to a NAACP meeting and say, "God, you n-words need to get a life." and get beat down, they committed a crime, but I still deserved it.

But gangs of kids have the right to annoy people and then beat them unconscious when politely asked not to do so?

I think you didn't read the entire article, notably the "So when she asked one boy politely but firmly to stop throwing popcorn at fellow passengers she was confident the unruly gang would behave." part.

I mean c'mon, if someone threw popcorn at me, I'd eat it and thank them. But if I asked them politely to stop it, that warrants thirty people ganging up on me and beating me unconscious?

That's a great straw-man. Too bad it's not relevant to what we're talking about.

[glorybebe]

I don't think it's a straw man at all. People are talking about going to war because they don't approve of the behavior of these people. It doesn't matter what we think as individuals, they committed a crime (if you'll notice, I certainly acknowledged that). That said, the woman wasn't an innocent victim. She took it upon herself to firmly tell people what to do. They (illegally) demonstrated to her why she doesn't have the juice to tell people what to do.

In your example of someone throwing popcorn at you and asking them to stop, then being ganged up on by 30 people, I just don't believe it could happen this way. I don't believe the woman's story about how things happened, either. I've been around (and part of, at times) mobs of drunk young people. I've been around real gangs and hung with them. It would be pretty impossible (assuming you weren't someone they knew and didn't like) to politely ask them to stop throwing popcorn and have everyone in the area immediately jump you.

I'd be willing to bet she either said something to the effect of people like them being the ruination of our world, or mentioned the black belt in judo she's so proud of and pointed out that she would MAKE them do what she said. The alternative possibility I see is that one or 2 of the little girls handed her @ss to her and she's too embarrassed to admit it, so it was suddenly a train full of hoodlums howling for her death.

I've been in many fights growing up. I once put a man in the hospital for a week, that required about 30 seconds of effort. I still don't believe that many people could have taken a shot and not killed the woman.

Regardless, the bottom line is whether it was one 15 year old girl, or a trainful of psychos pumped full of PCP who attacked her, they broke the law. It was assault. The law has existing penalties for such rude conduct.

She was still asking for it. If I go to a NAACP meeting and say, "God, you n-words need to get a life." and get beat down, they committed a crime, but I still deserved it.

That is so wrong IMO. There is no way that she asked to get the crap beat out of her. If no one stands up for others who are being bullied, then what kind of a world would we be (or are we) living in?

[InHuman]

She was still asking for it. If I go to a NAACP meeting and say, "God, you n-words need to get a life." and get beat down, they committed a crime, but I still deserved it.

Thats nothing even comparable to what happened tho..

It dosn't matter how rude she was saying it, she didn't deserve to get beaten//

[EtuMalku]

Thats nothing even comparable to what happened tho..

It dosn't matter how rude she was saying it, she didn't deserve to get beaten//

I'm a firm believer in Karma and being that she is an ex-cop I bet she got what was coming to her.

[InHuman]

I'm a firm believer in Karma and being that she is an ex-cop I bet she got what was coming to her.

You don't even know her.. how do you know she had a beating a the hands of drunken teenagers comin' to her?

Does the poor starvin' child have famine coming to it because in some past like it once stole bread?

[Roughneck]

I don't think it's a straw man at all.

Saying punishing a gang of people for beating someone unconscious is the same as someone killing a person for wearing a big hat in a theater, and is just as silly of an idea isn't a straw-man? I can't argue with you seriously if you think that.

People are talking about going to war because they don't approve of the behavior of these people.

You missed the point of this entire discussion, then. Granted, in a well-policed world, mob rule isn't necessary. But I don't know this victim's neighborhood enough to say it's well-policed. I have yet to make a decision on the matter because it's not fully known on what happened and why it happened, and no sentences have been passed on the accused. Instead, I wondered how you can group an entire race of people in those plentiful straw-men analogies you keep making. And now, here we are, discussing this.

But the behaviour of these people is up to scrutiny. Because either someone is obnoxiously lying, or someone is being criminal. I hope you don't feel you can rule one person out over a group based on what experiences you may or may not have before the full case is even made, yet.

It doesn't matter what we think as individuals, they committed a crime (if you'll notice, I certainly acknowledged that). That said, the woman wasn't an innocent victim. She took it upon herself to firmly tell people what to do. They (illegally) demonstrated to her why she doesn't have the juice to tell people what to do.

Again, you're missing out. Telling someone firmly what to do is saying something that isn't soft. You can still be polite and firm. Telling someone politely and firmly to stop being a pest in a polite manner makes her guilty of what- being a responsible citizen? If I saw people pestering others and those who were being pestered were bothered by it all, I'd probably be annoyed, too. There is the possibility/probability that this story might've been blemished. However, if the story is as is without any considerable misimplications, then the woman was in-fact innocent. Granted, it's some popcorn and the gang/group/whatever was just trying to have fun, but if the story is true, then they're not just trying to have fun if they just lashed out like that. You say you've been around enough to know, but I find that hard to believe if you think it's not possible for people to just lash-out and their friends join them just because they're looking for a fight or someone to mug.

In your example of someone throwing popcorn at you and asking them to stop, then being ganged up on by 30 people, I just don't believe it could happen this way.

It's not my example. Now, granted, some things may have been blemished, misinterpreted, and lost in translation along the way. But we have facts, based on the report.

That report tells us there was an unruly gang. Whether there were actually thirty people in that group and whether they all actually took part in beating this lady is questionable.

That report tells us she got beaten up. Whether she was lying about the entire situation to make a valid excuse for work is questionable.

That report tells us someone was arrested and released on bail. This means there are charges that have been made against a person, meaning unless the police are just purely incompetent, there is reasonable suspicion that the victim is telling the truth.

I don't believe the woman's story about how things happened, either. I've been around (and part of, at times) mobs of drunk young people. I've been around real gangs and hung with them. It would be pretty impossible (assuming you weren't someone they knew and didn't like) to politely ask them to stop throwing popcorn and have everyone in the area immediately jump you.

Then you haven't been around much. But this isn't about whether you've been around enough or at all, this is what charges have been made against a group of people. Don't think that just because you haven't personally experienced something rules it out. Justice would be extremely abused if everyone thought like that.

The alternative possibility I see is that one or 2 of the little girls handed her @ss to her and she's too embarrassed to admit it, so it was suddenly a train full of hoodlums howling for her death.

Why are you trying to circumvent the censors?

Anyways, are you saying you know she's lying or that it is a possibility? Because I don't recall arguing that it wasn't. No, I'm arguing the story based on what is reported.

I've been in many fights growing up. I once put a man in the hospital for a week, that required about 30 seconds of effort. I still don't believe that many people could have taken a shot and not killed the woman.

Congratulations on your victories in life, but you haven't been in many fights if you think a group of people can't beat someone unconscious without killing them.

If I go to a NAACP meeting and say, "God, you n-words need to get a life." and get beat down, they committed a crime, but I still deserved it.

More straw-men! You're making analogies that aren't appropriate for the type of situation at hand. Please stop.

[sam12six]

Saying punishing a gang of people for beating someone unconscious is the same as someone killing a person for wearing a big hat in a theater, and is just as silly of an idea isn't a straw-man? I can't argue with you seriously if you think that.

Maybe we do see this so differently that we'll never accept each other's POV. My point has been and is that there is already a legal penalty for what these people did. People saying let's stone the girls in the group, and kill the rest on sight is as silly to me as saying let's kill someone for wearing a big hat in a theater. It's all one person's opinion of what should be done that doesn't agree with what the law states.

If somebody's being bullied and you step in, you're offering to either accept or apply a butt-kicking. Maybe people don't like the fact that this is so, but this is what I mean when I say she was asking for it. She was saying on her personal authority alone, the rest of the people on the train had to act the way she said. Whether they were being obnoxious or not, this is what she was doing.

I know people can survive a surprising amount of damage. The reason I mentioned where I've been was to qualify my statement as far as the sheer amount of damage you can do to someone in a short period of time - multiply that by 30 people actually trying to do that damage and it would be very, very bad. You're right, she might have survived this if it really happened because they would have stopped when they thought she WAS dead.

Fact is look at the picture of the woman: The amount of damage visible on her face would be done by someone who's not very strong punching her in the face 3 or 4 times.

You're right that we just don't know what happened. We don't know who was throwing popcorn at whom (tossing a couple of pieces of popcorn to your friend across the aisle so he can catch them in his mouth puts things in a different perspective than surrounding a crippled girl's wheelchair and pelting her while you laugh and she cries.

We don't know exactly what was done to her, but I don't (just my opinion) believe a train full of people beat her down between stops based on the fact that she's not dead (or very close).

We don't know what she said to instigate the situation, just that she felt that she was "politely and firmly asking" them to behave. You obviously feel differently, but I'll stand by my opinion that you can't "firmly" ask for anything. You can ask politely, when it becomes firm it's telling someone what to do. Whether it's something they should be doing, whether it's good for them or society at large doesn't matter. What matters is that you're saying (once again) based on MY authority (which means my ability to enforce that authority on you), you will do what I say.

Again, I'm not saying anyone was justified in beating her down, just that I understand how it can happen and that if she really came across with the polite but firm tone I've heard cops trained to use, she was making matters worse by opening her mouth.

As for strawmen - Coelacanth!!!

Seriously, I'm not trying to debate anything, so there's no reason for me to straw man, ad hominim, or anything else debated related. I try to use analogies to explain my thought process. No analogy is perfect because by nature, it's an attempt to clarify why I feel like I do.