The real message of Bethlehem's star

[PetriFB]

The real message of Bethlehem's star

Video serie about Bethlehem star. The tradition versus the truth. See the video:

http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/bethlehemstarvideo.html

[toast]

The real message of Bethlehem's star

Video serie about Bethlehem star. The tradition versus the truth. See the video:

http://www.kotipetri...mstarvideo.html

11 vids????

What exactly is the message and/or the point of discussion here?

[freetoroam]

The real message of Bethlehem's star

Video serie about Bethlehem star. The tradition versus the truth. See the video:

http://www.kotipetri...mstarvideo.html

Its not even in English, can`t you just post the subtitles on here instead, I can read them on here in one hit then instead of 11 vids.

[back to earth]

Is it an advert or discussion. I am not into watching a load of vids as the subject ... some multi media can be included to make a point, the subject matter should come from the poster.

Who knows, it might have been interesting ... like, who on earth were the 'Magi' and why are they in the story ?

[SHaYap]

Is it an advert or discussion. I am not into watching a load of vids as the subject ... some multi media can be included to make a point, the subject matter should come from the poster.

Who knows, it might have been interesting ... like, who on earth were the 'Magi' and why are they in the story ?

Bible Scholar Brent Landau Asks “Who Were the Magi”?

Revelation of the Magi text gives wise men’s view of the Christmas story

Biblical Archaeology Society Staff • 11/29/2011

Who were the magi, those gift-bearing wise men from the east who are so central to the traditional telling of the Christmas story? Bible scholar Brent Landau believes he has found at least one answer to this age-old question.

...

According to Brent Landau, this dramatic account not only answers the question “Who were the magi?” but also provides details about how many they were, where they came from and their mysterious encounter with the star that led them to Bethlehem. In the Revelation of the Magi, there are not just three magi, as often depicted in early Christian art (actually, Matthew does not tell us how many there were), nor are they Babylonian astrologers or Persian Zoroastrians, as other early traditions held. Rather from Brent Landau’s translation it is clear the magi (defined in this text as those who “pray in silence”) are a group—numbering as few as 12 and as many as several score—of monk-like mystics from a far-off, mythical land called Shir, possibly China. They are descendants of Seth, the righteous third son of Adam, and the guardians of an age-old prophecy that a star of indescribable brightness would someday appear “heralding the birth of God in human form.”

• Biblical Archeology Society link
  

The Revelation of the Magi

A summary and introduction

by Brent Landau

Contents

Rev. Magi is a lengthy text—about 6500 words in Syriac. The narrative will be

summarized briefly here, and a much more detailed summary will follow the introduction.

Rev. Magi is summarized in this volume instead of translated because it was published

recently in English by a trade press in a format designed primarily for a general

audience.

1

The chief goals of this entry are twofold. First, it provides a fuller introduction

to the text and its interpretative problems than that found in the trade press version.

Second, because of the length and complexity of Rev. Magi, a detailed summary provides

readers with a convenient and accessible overview of the text’s content.

• pdf document link
  

The Sages and the Star-Child: An Introduction to the Revelation of the Magi, An Ancient Christian Apocryphon

The Sages and the Star-Child: An Introduction to the Revelation of the Magi, An Ancient Christian Apocryphon

A dissertation presented by Brent Christopher Landau to The Faculty of Harvard Divinity School in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Theology In the Subject of New Testament and Early Christianity

• academia edu link
  
• free republic discussion link
  

Enjoy

~

[LostSouls7]

what about the star of david ?

[Jor-el]

The real message of Bethlehem's star

Video serie about Bethlehem star. The tradition versus the truth. See the video:

http://www.kotipetri...mstarvideo.html

You do realize that no-one is going to watch the whole series, don't you?

Why don't you tell us what the idea is behind the video series...

[PetriFB]

11 vids????

What exactly is the message and/or the point of discussion here?

http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/starofBethlehem.html

Written version in English.

[Jor-el]

http://www.kotipetri...fBethlehem.html

Written version in English.

I just read this and am still trying to understand the idea behind the thread. What message does the star convey other than being a guiding light toward the place of the Messiahs birth?

I agree with the conclusion:

The real message of the star of Bethlehem was that the Saviour, the Messiah and the Lord had been born, He who brings eternal salvation to all those who believe in Jesus the Messiah. The focus of the message is not a child lying in a manger, but that the Saviour, the Messiah and the Lord had been born to the world. Is Jesus for you a little child in a manger at the "Christmas" time or your Saviour? If you confess your sins to God and believe in the Lord Jesus in your heart, God forgives your sins and gives to you eternal life.

But I do have some problems in the way the it was put forth...

There are a few elements in the text that I personally don't agree with, for example, the tax decree in the 1st part is known to be a mistranslation, it has nothing to do with a tax decree, but rather is a call to an Empire wide enrollment of an oath of allegiance to the then Emperor, Caesar Augustus (3 B.C.) Even all the allies of Rome participated, as was the case of Judaea and Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor), according to archaeological evidence.

As for the Magi, we also know that it was not just three, but rather a lot more than three. The Magi were during this time known as the King Makers, without them, no Eastern ruler could become king.

According to the ancient historian Herodotus, the Magi were a tribe of people within the larger people called the Medes. They were a hereditary priesthood tribe, somewhat like the Levites in Israel, who were the single tribe from the twelve that carried out the religious ceremonies of Israel. Similarly, of all of the tribes within the Medes, the Magi had been selected to function as priests in their pagan rituals.

Whether they originated all the way back in Ur of the Chaldees as a part of a nomadic people that were wandering about in that part of the world, or whether they first appeared in the Babylonian time, no one knows. But we do know that from the Babylonian to the Roman empires, they maintained a place of tremendous prominence and significance in the Orient.

The Magi were the key people in the eastern governments. They rose to a place of enormous political power by virtue of their very unique priestly function, occultic powers of divination, and knowledge of astrology and astronomy. During the four world empires, they served in a powerfully influential capacity as advisors to the royalty in the East, consequently earning the reputation of being ‘wise men’.

In the 6th century B.C., the Medo- Persian Darius the Great selected Zoroastrianism, with its emphasis upon astrology, as the national religion. This may account for the Magi’s focus in that field. So, on top of their own culture's religion was superimposed Judaism and after that, Zoroastrianism.

The law of the Medes and the Persians (Est. 1:19; Dan. 6:8) was the code of scientific and religious discipline of the Magi, and it was required instruction for anyone wishing to be a monarch in Persia. Besides controlling the kingly office, historians tell us that the Magi oversaw the judicial office as well. Esther 1:13 implies that the royal bench of judges was chosen from the Magi. By this kind of leverage, the Magi of the massive Medo-Persian Empire were able to control essentially the entire known world of the Orient.

The Magi were so powerful that historians tell us that no Persian was ever able to become king except under two conditions: (1) he had to master the scientific and religious discipline of the Magi, and (2) he had to be approved of and crowned by the Magi.

See: http://blogs.christianpost.com/confident-christian/the-king-makers-a-look-at-the-magi-13659/

As for Jesus birth, we know that he was born in 3 B.C. specifically during the month of September.

This is also where the star of Bethlehem plays a role, because it wasn't just a star it was a series of planetary conjunctions with specific constellations that took place over a 2 year period from 3 B.C. to the end of 2 B.C. These have been mapped out using modern astronomical software.

[back to earth]

My view on the Magi then must have been modelled on Herodotus. I have always thought the Magi were 'Fatalistic Zuranites' (also the first record of their name includes a ref to Zurvanites.

http://en.wikipedia....stic_Zurvanism.

Their idea of a 'central God' (even though Zoroastrianism is supposedly monotheistic ) seemed in line with Jewish theology. Yet some have the view that the Magi were the ones that actually preserved the dualistic ( original ? ) teaching of Zoroastrianism.

Going back earlier (not through history but via the Avestas) the area of origin of the religion ( here stated as non-Mesopotamian) is further to the east, along the western edge of the Himalayas and associated mountain ranges and up into the passes and routes into China (ancient silk routes) . Possibly as far as and into and around the Taklamakan Basin, where ancient 'European mummies' have been found in 'China'. So I am not surprised about any Chinese Link.

http://www.heritagei...ns/location.htm

Herodotus in places likens them to those Jesus whipped from the temple ; " The Magi are a very peculiar race, different entirely from the Egyptian priests, and indeed from all other men whatsoever. The Egyptian priests make it a point of religion not to kill any live animals except those which they offer in sacrifice. The Magi, on the contrary, kill animals of all kinds with their own hands, excepting dogs and men. They even seem to take a delight in the employment, and kill, as readily as they do other animals, ants and snakes, and such like flying or creeping things. However, since this has always been their custom, let them keep to it. Buying and selling in a marketplace is a custom unknown to the Persians, who never make purchases in open marts, and indeed have not in their whole country a single market-place. "

Which seems strange considering the Zoroastrian prohibition on all that. Things and types degenerate anything I suppose. persia never had a market place ???

IN any case, they seemed a priestly order of Zoroastrians, and their doctine, religion and philosophy, I feel are better understood from pre-Persian Zoroastrian sources;

http://www.heritagei...ns/religion.htm

Edited December 24, 2014 by back to earth

[Frank Merton]

This is a myth invented by the author of Matthew and recorded nowhere else. Taken literally, it would seem to be the work of the Devil. First, star worshipers or astrologers or something like that, which the Bible condemns, are used. Second, the star leads them first to Herod so as to alert him. Then it goes on to Bethlehem. Herod follows with the slaughter of the infants.

Nothing good came of it. I don't think the author of Matthew wanted to convey that idea -- he just wanted his baby to be announced in the heavens as was the case in the ancient world of any important birth -- but he invented a tale that has not-so-favorable possible interpretations.

[back to earth]

Agreed Frank ... but why use specifically Magi ? Aside from the' king -makers' adding 'validity' , I think it was because their culture was known in the ancient world to be a source of many things, they were one of the big 4 that put influence into the Alexandrian Synthesis, ' Magi ', Greeks, Egyptians and Jews and their cultural teachings.

Unfortunately today, in western cultures, many know nothing of the Avestas and the vast source of info contained within them.

Edited December 25, 2014 by back to earth

[Davros of Skaro]

This is a myth invented by the author of Matthew and recorded nowhere else. Taken literally, it would seem to be the work of the Devil. First, star worshipers or astrologers or something like that, which the Bible condemns, are used. Second, the star leads them first to Herod so as to alert him. Then it goes on to Bethlehem. Herod follows with the slaughter of the infants.

Nothing good came of it. I don't think the author of Matthew wanted to convey that idea -- he just wanted his baby to be announced in the heavens as was the case in the ancient world of any important birth -- but he invented a tale that has not-so-favorable possible interpretations.

Actualy the OT says that God put signs in the Sky to interpret....I forget the verse.

[Jor-el]

Actualy the OT says that God put signs in the Sky to interpret....I forget the verse.

Genesis 1:14

¹⁴ And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for appointed times, and for days and years, ¹⁵ and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.”

and

Psalm 19:1-2

1 The heavens declare the glory of God,

and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

2 Day to day pours out speech,

and night to night reveals knowledge.

[seeder]

well if you want a controversial view (perhaps) this story was in the mail a couple of days ago

Astronomy CAN explain the biblical Star of Bethlehem - but the three wise men wouldn't have arrived until Jesus was eight MONTHS old

According to the New Testament, King Herod, asked the wise men when the star had appeared, because he was unaware of any such star

Astronomers have also been baffled by how King Herod didn't know of such a bright star, and how a star 'in the east' could guide men south

But 'in the east' is a literal translation of the Greek phrase en te anatole

This describes when a planet that would rise above the eastern horizon just before the sun would appear, and then disappear in the morning sky

If this was the case, however, the wise men would have been guided by Jupiter wouldn't have arrived until Jesus was eight months old

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2886254/Astronomy-explain-biblical-Star-Bethlehem-three-wise-men-wouldn-t-arrived-Jesus-toddler.html#ixzz3MuVmmw6J

have fun with that then!

[Frank Merton]

Well it seems Jorel endorses astrology. Somehow I'm not surprised. Does anyone have any contradictory verses that don't like such practices?

[Jor-el]

Well it seems Jorel endorses astrology. Somehow I'm not surprised. Does anyone have any contradictory verses that don't like such practices?

Astrology as you know it, and the world knows it today? certainly not.

But that God has indeed prepared signs in the heavens that are part of the so called astrological context, yes.

There were no astronomers in the time of Jesus and before and for centuries afterward. Deal with it, the references are all astrological, just not the astrology that you are so used to hearing about. The Magi were astrologers, they identified from the signs in the heavens the birth of Christ himself, they used the astrological constellations, they used the planets and they used the stars.

Modern "Astrology" is man made prophecy, When God does it, even through the stars it is simply called prophecy.

The Magi were known as the worlds foremost astrologers of the time, it from within this context that we should see what they saw and thus come to a decision at the importance of the events surrounding Jesus birth.

If the Magi could make Kings and break them, it is no wonder that Herod feared their arrival in Jerusalem. That the Magi were familiar with the Messianic promises of the Jews is a well known fact, especially since Daniel, during the Babylonian Captivity, became their leader.

So what was it that the Magi saw?

There was a significant conjunction in 3 B.C. with the constellation of Leo. Jupiter approached the star Regulus, which in ancient tradition, is known as the King star and is widely recognized as the star that signifies royalty.

Regulus is Latin for 'prince' or 'little king'. The Greek variant Basiliscus is also used. It is known as Qalb al-Asad, from the Arabic, meaning 'the heart of the lion'. This phrase is sometimes approximated as Kabelaced and translates into Latin as Cor Leonis. It is known in Chinese as the Fourteenth Star of Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor. In Hindu astronomy, Regulus corresponds to the Nakshatra Magha ("the bountiful").

Persian astrologers around 3000 BC knew Regulus as Magh ("the great"), and as Venant, one of the four 'royal stars'. It was one of the fifteen Behenian stars known to medieval astrologers, associated with granite, mugwort, and the kabbalistic symbol

.

In MUL.APIN, Regulus listed as LUGAL, meaning "the star that stands in the breast of the Lion:the King.".^[11]

Source: http://en.wikipedia....al_associations

It actually did this 3 times in total over a period of a year in what is known as a Royal conjunction (King Planet. Jupiter and King Star, Regulus) On September the 14th 3 B.C. Jupiter approached Regulus, and continued on its way, then it looped and came back again on February the 17, 2B.C. and again on May the 8th, 2B.C.

The picture is an example of the 1st of the 3 Royal conjunctions I mentioned

A month before Jupiter, also did a little get together with Venus on the 12th of August 3 B.C, both planets crossed paths in the night sky at the very same instant and superimposed each other.

And again it happened 10 months later, on June 17th 2 B.C.

A third conjunction happened as well besides the ones I mentioned, which is why I believe 11th September, 3 B.C. is the birthdate of Jesus...

Revelation 12:1-6

The Woman and the Dragon

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

The 1st two verses have an astronomical equivalent, which occurred on that very day...

However there is one aspect of the Nativity that falls on the 25th December. On the 25th December, 2 B.C., 1 Year and 3 months after Jesus was born, the Magi arrived at the home of Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem. Jesus was just learning to walk and speak his 1st words.

On that night, Jupiter stopped in the heavens, South of Jerusalem, almost on top of Bethlehem, mere 6 km away. This occurred due to something we call Retrograde motion, where a planet appears to stop and then reverse its course in the night sky. It just so happens that Jupiter's retrograde motion coincided with the 25th of December, allowing to seemingly stop over Bethlehem for two days, when the Magi were in Jerusalem in Herods' Palace.

As an example of retrograde motion I will post this image of Mars and its motion in the Sky...

And here is one of Jupiter and a number of other planets.... all of them stopping their motion in the sky.

Many can call this evidence of Astrology, but no-one can deny, that a king was born on this day, the stars sang for joy, and the heavens declared the Glory of God.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Jor-el

[Jor-el]

well if you want a controversial view (perhaps) this story was in the mail a couple of days ago

have fun with that then!

I did it was fun, but utterly useless. Since Jesus could not have been born in 6 B.C. But the information is on the right track, they should just be checking out things three years later.

[Frank Merton]

The point I was making is that the Star of David story of Matthew is not credible. Read literally it is nothing but evil, leading to no end except forcing the holy family to flee and bring about the death of many babies. That Matthew got carried away with himself and didn't think through what he was writing is pretty obvious. This is under God's inspiration?

[back to earth]

yes, this is all interesting (and I have seen it before) ... but :

Astrology as you know it, and the world knows it today? certainly not.

...

On that night, Jupiter stopped in the heavens, South of Jerusalem, almost on top of Bethlehem, mere 6 km away. This occurred due to something we call Retrograde motion, where a planet appears to stop and then reverse its course in the night sky. It just so happens that Jupiter's retrograde motion coincided with the 25th of December, allowing to seemingly stop over Bethlehem for two days, when the Magi were in Jerusalem in Herods' Palace.

this bit ... I have no problem with the astrology and retrograde motion, but how 'on earth' do you get location ?

You might have to explain this : " Jupiter stopped in the heavens, South of Jerusalem," and " seemingly stop over Bethlehem " ? ? ?

... hopefully I won't have to go into any astro /.astronomo logical explanations and you already see the difficulty here ?

[+Paranoid Android]

The point I was making is that the Star of David story of Matthew is not credible. Read literally it is nothing but evil

yes, Herod was a very evil man, this is not new to history, why would it be astonishing for evil to come from him?

leading to no end except forcing the holy family to flee and bring about the death of many babies.

Less than twenty, all told. Still evil, but twenty dead babies (probably less) does not bear such horror in those days (people were slaughtered back in those days, far more than twenty at a time, and I daresay many of those accounts went unreported by historians).

That Matthew got carried away with himself and didn't think through what he was writing is pretty obvious. This is under God's inspiration?

Thank you for your opinion on the obviousness of what Matthew did.

[eight bits]

Frank

Well it seems Jorel endorses astrology. Somehow I'm not surprised. Does anyone have any contradictory verses that don't like such practices?

The difficulty with Jor-el's account is that all planetary phenomena are deterministic. Quite a few people were born under any of his supposed meaningful configurations, and at the time of anyone's birth, there was doubtless some supposed meaningful configuration, shortly before or shortly afterwards. There is always something happening overhead.

Also, Jor-el errs in saying

There were no astronomers in the time of Jesus and before and for centuries afterward.

Pliny the Elder (~23 - 79 CE) recorded quite a bit of astronomy during the First Century. He did not discover any of it. He was reporting what wealthy educated people like him knew, but things that might still make an impression on the ordinary working person in the street.

For example, Pliny kew that a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse could occur two weeks apart. Such a dual eclipse someitme in the 30's apparently became attached to the execution of Jesus, and is found in the iconography of that event even in modern depictions. There is always something happening overhead.

What you will find "contrary verses" against is the supersitition of astrology, a diversion of resources away from the priesthood to which the odor of idolatry clings. And, as Jor-el has already provided, whatever you find a verse against, you will find two verses in favor of, provided you interpret them "correctly."

Matthew makes his atrologers non-Jewish, and so not subject to any Jewish strictures against astrology. Herod wasn't Jewish, either. So, they are all pretty much at liberty to indulge in fantasy stargazing to their hearts' content, while all about them fail to notice this talented star bobbing about. As to the physical impossibility of a star in the east leading men to the south and west, this is Mathhew, where a woman can have a baby without having sex, and so become the second Jewish woman to accomplish that feat, and her son can grow up to be the first man to ride two donkeys at the same time, to show that he is the rightful king. Worrying about what's possible is a waste of time when reading Matthew.

In literary storytelling, such lapses are gaffes. In religious storytelling, they're miracles, and are the proof that the story must be true. Faith, then, often is not believing something without proof, but rather believing something despite the proof offered.

[Frank Merton]

yes, Herod was a very evil man, this is not new to history, why would it be astonishing for evil to come from him?

Less than twenty, all told. Still evil, but twenty dead babies (probably less) does not bear such horror in those days (people were slaughtered back in those days, far more than twenty at a time, and I daresay many of those accounts went unreported by historians).

Thank you for your opinion on the obviousness of what Matthew did.

Well now you seem to be squirming, and approach things with rationalization and oblique hand waves rather than anything substantial. A few questions? Since we presume God knew how evil Herod was, why did God send the star first to Herod? You try, rather slyly it seems to me to divert the evil from the star to Herod, but that is just evasiveness.

Oh, then, there is "less than twenty." Does that make it not an evil? If it were only one would it not be an evil? Kinda reminds me of the "few" young men killed by the she-bear under Elisha's curse -- so it wasn't hundreds as we see sometimes nowadays, it is still wrong.

Oh and then you "thank" me for my opinion on the obviousness of what Matthew writes. That strikes me as smug and an insult. What is logically wrong with my opinion? Have you a better explanation?

[+Paranoid Android]

Faith, then, often is not believing something without proof, but rather believing something despite the proof offered.

Faith is trusting that what one says is truthful, honest, and representing what actually is.

[Frank Merton]

The difficulty with Jor-el's account is that all planetary phenomena are deterministic. Quite a few people were born under any of his supposed meaningful configurations, and at the time of anyone's birth, there was doubtless some supposed meaningful configuration, shortly before or shortly afterwards. There is always something happening overhead.

Astrology is an ancient belief system, but quite outside Christian tradition, and routinely attacked by the Christians -- I remember a long discussion of it in Augustine mincing no words. I think we agree on that.

However, it don't think it is necessarily deterministic, although it can be read that way. The astrologer speaks of influences, not forces, implying to me that the positions of the stars set patterns which may be likely but not necessary.

Of course to a modern observer the whole thing is absurd -- there is among other problems no statistical evidence for such influences (the astrologers are worse at rationalizing then even the Christians on this board) and of course no conceivable mechanism transmitting such influences. It is therefore pseudo-science, but to an ancient it must have had considerable appeal.