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History Debate!

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#106    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Because minor or major its all count when you study history.

Georgia was small too yet its one of most epic tales of Mongolian conquest.
Naimans and Kuchlug were relativly small but their story was epic.
Croats and Hungarians were small yet they have some interesting stories to share as Battle of Mohi, Battle of Klis, Battle of Trogir, Battle of Split...
In the end Mongols were small population in certain sense yet they become big.

I reacated because you notice and stressed out irelevant things. No hard feelings here.

No hard feelings, L---my point wasn't ethnicity, but the intricacy and detail some posters are putting into this. I think the criiteria for "best conqueror" were lost in the shuffle, so I offered my alternative "do-gooder" conquerors just to make people think. Somehow I struck a nerve, unintentionally, with you by repeating 2 ethnic/national group names; but I did so in context, respectfully. I wasn't putting anybody down.

So, "mir" it shall be, I trust.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#107    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 28 June 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

The priest in chains was representative of all the others who had taken vows. I only saw the old Taras Bulba film on youtube clips, with the Russian Yul Bryner as the Ukranian Taras Bulba (nothing is easy with this period)..... The new film is this one http://en.wikipedia....lba_(2009_film)

And some nerd type info. The famous Zaporozhian Cossacks who these films are about, are now the Kuban Cossacks living in Russian Krasnodar Region. Well, it is slightly more complicated story, but digressing too far from OP I think. Though Catherine the Great was also a conqueror. Krasnodar used to be Ekaterinodar between the conquest of Kuban and the revolution.

Thank you for the information!

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#108    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:47 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Now I know you have problems with Hungarians. :rolleyes:  Hint: wife

Oh, no!!! You have seen through me!

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#109    kannin

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

Roman empire at its prime was an amazing force, shizzah!

happiness can be found in the darkest of times, only if one remembers to turn on the light

#110    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 28 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

To me the most interesting is Takeda Shingen, the incident with the war fan for instance. Also for defeating Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu combined.

I like Japan history. I know little about it. Im willing to learn more. I heard about Takeda Shingen but dont know nothing about battles.
Right now Im studing about Venetian and Dutch republic. I will learn more when I would have more time. Right now I know outlines.
But ofcourse as you see from my post 38 Im very well aware how Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were big.

I like history from Japan, Vietnam, Korea, China, India,...

Here is one interesting story about famous strategist and tactican in China which I mentioned already.
Zhuge Liang.


Zhuge Liang and the Empty City (228 AD)

Zhuge Liang (Shu kingdom) failed to conquer Changan in Wei kingdom because of defeat at the Battle of Jieting. He was in city Xicheng with 10 000 soldiers and on him was aproching great tactican and strategist Sima Yi of Wei with 200 000 soldiers. All others Shu soldiers were busy and not able to help them. Every other person would retreat. But not Zhuge Liang.
He ordered that all gates to be opened, drums silent, banners hide, soldiers disguised as civilians.
Then he climbed on platform above city gate. In middle of war he stay calm. He sit down, pull his guqin (instrument) and start to play music.
Wei army and Sima Yi were stunned. Not any soldier dare to enter the city. They thought its ambush. Sima Yi ordered retreat.

I recomand you to study him. Quotes, deeds, desicion making.
If person in China is more famous then Sun Tzu then you know we have extraordinary person.
There is also one story about him I adore. About missing arrows.

Maybe you watched movie Red Cliff?

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 04:34 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#111    Yes_Man

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

View Postkannin, on 28 June 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Roman empire at its prime was an amazing force, shizzah!
Which Roman Empire is that?


#112    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:42 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Maybe you watched movie Red Cliff?
Never saw any Chinese films. Almost all non European films I watch are Japanese, Samurai and horror. Some strange fascination with a country with such high level of civilisation, such culture and politeness, then sudden slash of the best swords made and blood splashing everywhere. Curious mix. However, it's not a problem to remember names of battles in Japan as they tended to fight each other in only a few places, five battles at Kawanakajima alone. btw, the Japanese did not have to rely on typhoons to defeat the Mongols, though of course they helped. On both invasions, 1274 and 1281 at Hakata Bay, the Mongols landed their army and attacked the Japanese with rockets and gunpowder, which the Japanse did not have then, and the Mongol bow was superior. And as we know, the Japanese had the victory, the Mongols loosing their ships to the storms after having been defeated on land. It is a popular misconception that the "Kamikaze" sunk the Mongol fleets before they even got to shore.


#113    kannin

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 28 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Which Roman Empire is that?
loved the byzantine and holy romans

happiness can be found in the darkest of times, only if one remembers to turn on the light

#114    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:17 PM

Tut-Pasheri

Mongols tried twice and both times failed. There was plan for third invasion as well.
Yes they have tech you wrote and they were on shore. But for example at one trying of invasion at night kamikaze ruined ships.
Then Mongol elite enter the rest of floating ship and left rest of mortals to die.
Samurai built wall at Hakata Bay as protection...they fight for days...
If there wasnt Kamikaze Japan would be under Kublai Khan.
Mongols defeat themselves with ignorance about climate. They show their weakness. Sea.
They were not defeated before divine wind.
Japanese kill all Mongols, Koreans except some Chinese which they took as slaves.

About Red Cliff. This is video from the movie. You will recognize calm Zhuge Liang.
One day his army needed 100 000 arrows. Although some say this story is myth. Others truth.
But I would not be surprised knowing him if this story was true.
Anyway he needed 100 000 arrows. And there wasnt time to made arrows.
So he burrowed arrows from enemy. He sent a ship....just see the clip you will understand.




After he steal enemies arrow he left the scene.

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 06:26 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#115    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

Tut there is first time for anything. Watch this movie.



You will get a peek of China warfare in 3rd century.

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 06:34 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#116    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:43 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 28 June 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Oh, no!!! You have seen through me!

Oh, and, by the way, what language is "szentgyorgy?" I'm told Croatia has beautiful women beaches on the Dalmatia coast.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#117    jmccr8

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

Hi L,

  I've been following your posts on the Mongols, they are both interesting and informative.

jmccr8


#118    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:31 AM

Thanks jmccr8 . Here is one interesting story about Mongols.

This will be my last post to proove my point. Whole story about Mongol is as al Athir said :“History books do not contain nothing similar or even close to it.“
Look what al Athir wrote also:
„People emerges from border of China, before year pass some of them reach land of Armenia and go beyond (about this I will wrote in my post)….When long time pass and someone sees this record of this event will refuse to accept it and think of most unlikely, although truth is his hands..Since comming Prophet untill present time Muslims have not suffer this such hardship and misery as afflicting now.“

When I start exploring Mongols I thought I will learn about these nomads in a week or so. Then I realize that history of steppe is very complicated. Very long. And very interesting. Obedience of Temujin army was nothing world seen before and ever since. Their diplomacy. Their psychological war. Their tactics for destroying siege tactics were amazing. Such as building the dam then releasing water. They put dead people on catapult and throw it into city to spread black death. Mongol legacy was black death in Europe.They were worst nightmare for settle societies. Lived close to earth. Like tribes in North and South America and Africa. I have many paintings about steppe people from historical books which I can upload if you desire. Mongols have had spy network. Subutai met Venetians who gave him maps.
When Temujin created state he didnt proclaim him ruler of state. But ruler of „all who dwell in tents“. Meaning ruler of all who built houses. So when they came for example in Persia, or Russia…They look upon those people as their citizens already. And if you dared to say something against Temujin or Mongolia you would not be considered external enemy of Mongolia but rebel. And punishment for rebellion was death. It was your own problem to not knowing law. Not knowing law (which they created far in Mongolia) doesnt save you from it.

Crusades were going. Georgians promised Pope that they will participate in Crusade and promise Pope army which they gather. They were ready to launch attack on Islam. 70 000 knights and 30 000 Cumans or Kypchaks Turks, another steppe people, under George IV of Georgia. But what George didnt know was that Subutai ask Temujin to allow his expedition to the west with 30 000 Mongols. Mongols first time clashed with Christians were on Caucasus in Goergia. In 1221. When Subutai launch attack on this already gathered army, even outnumbered, arrows riped the air. It was usual Mongol tactic. Releasing arrows, runing around border lines, killing much of enemies as you can. And it was done in total silence. No drama. No drums. Drums start playing only when mounted heavy cavalry charged in battle, with swords, maces, spears. When arrows worked none Mongols would made a sound. Drums were psychological attack and heavy cavalry for finishing battles. When heavy cavalry enter in battle you know its already over. Anyway, Georgians start to attack Mongols. They marched. Mongols retreat so Georgians were spread. They followed Mongols. What Georgians didnt know was that Subutai and Jebe leave some of their troops in the rear hidden. And when Mongol horses were tired (you can imagine how was tired Georgian army under armor) they mounted new fresh horses and launch counter attack while hidden army attack from rear. Mongol heavy cavalry under Jebe clash with Georgians. George IV fled. After they deleted Georgian army rest of Georgians in cities expected attack. Two week pass and nothing. They were confused. Army for crusade was destroyed (by Mongol scouting army). Subutai went in Iran for refreshing his army. He asked help from Persian cities. Who didnt provide help was sacked. Simply. When they came back in Georgia, their King was waiting them with new raised army. Only this time George waited them in foothills. They didnt want to go on openfield where Mongols could rape them with their mobility. But there was pass in mountains were Subutai hide 5000 Mongols as ambush. Georgians move beyond that crack exposing their flank and „boom.“ Now Georigians move whole army for 90 degrees to face new treat leaving  exposed flank to Subutai. Almost all were killed by hunt that last for days. Mongols were chasing them as animals. For days. King escape but soon he died. Now in Tblisi on thoren was woman. Queen Rusudan. With no military. She wrote to Pope a letter saying: „Georgians wont be in next crusade.“

Subutai move to one Muslim Shah to seek guides to pass Caucasus. Shah order guides that lead Mongols trough roughest terrain and longest route. While he used shortest path to send messenger to warn others people on other side of Caucasus about incoming terror. So that they must be united against this what they didnt know was scout expedition. When Mongol pass glacier mountain they seen a scene. 50 000 soldiers in formation were waiting for them. Equpied,supplied. Subutai now understand he was manipulated. He tries attack and fails so he retreat. But Mongols saw when they attack that this is a mix army of Christhians, Muslims, Alans, Pagans and Cumans. So Subutai show his diplomacy skills. He sent envoys to Cumans with story how they all are stepe brothers. That they dont have problems with Cumans. We have problems with these others people from cities. We will give you loot and money just leave. Cumans agreed and in morning their left the scene. Subutai destroy rest of this army and start chasing Cumans. Why? Because he wanted his treasure back. He catch Cumans and deleted them too. Now road to Europe was open.

And this is just PART of Subutai EXPEDITION. Imagine what Mongols did when they were on invasion.

In the end lets quote wiki about Subutai:
He directed more than twenty campaigns in which he conquered thirty-two nations and won sixty-five pitched battles, during which he conquered or overran more territory than any other commander in history.[1] He gained victory by means of imaginative and sophisticated strategies and routinely coordinated movements of armies that were hundreds of kilometers away from each other. He is also remembered for devising the campaign that destroyed the armies of Hungary and Poland within two days of each other, by forces over five hundred kilometers apart.

Edited by the L, 29 June 2013 - 08:53 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#119    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:33 AM

...When long time pass and someone sees record of this event will refuse to accept it and think of most unlikely, although truth is his hands...

Edited by the L, 29 June 2013 - 08:48 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#120    kannin

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

Help us write our story I think it will turn out great with colaboration with many members heres the link

http://www.unexplain...opic=250186&hl=

happiness can be found in the darkest of times, only if one remembers to turn on the light




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