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My thoughts on God...


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#46    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:15 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

But is still don't understand what is difference between my standpoint and your standpoint.

My view is that a loving and merciful God with unlimited power would not let anyone die forever, because a simple human parent would not want that for their precious child. If God truly loved his creation, he would go to whatever extent to save him. But from what I can see, he doesn't.

That's my opinion, it may not be right.

I don't see the God in Islam or Christianity doing that.

That's all I am saying, and in your view, people are punished, so it is similar to Islam.

View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

It is good you use your reasoning, because God wants to be reasoned with. He wants to be understood and loved because of that.

If God is truly like that, I have no problem, I will try to understand him and love him.

However,there's the big problem, how can I love a God who isn't loving and merciful?

How can I love a God who, as an example, destroys my children or family because they didn't accept his religion while I did?

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#47    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Accepting Christianity in essence doesn't lead to salvation. Nor accepting any religion per se. What leads to salvation is the state of one's heart about the faith in goodness and humility. A person who has put in his heart that being humble and good is right thing to do, he actually proves that it was God who put this things in his heart, and therefore does Gods will, nevermind what is he called, a hindu, christian , muslim, atheist.
Also, a person who calls himslef christian, and feels that being christian, gives him a right over other people of different religion, doesn't have humble and good heart, and hence will be condemned by God. For God doesn't judge by our words but by hearts.

Problem with religion is that it puts a lot of requirements on people, and when people can't fulfill those requirements, they feel separated from God. But religious requirements are not worth anything, what is in a heart is worth everything. This is what christianity teaches, unlike other religions: that you don't have to work for your salvation, God did all the work, you have just to accept it. And by accepting it, your heart is free again to be humble and good.

So at the end, there are righteous people in all religions, and there are a lot of christians that will experience second death, no religion has exclusivity in saving.

It doesn't but in Christianity it is not an option to not accept, am I correct? That's what I've heard.

If you are a Christian, you may or may not experience this second death.

But if you are not a Christian, you do.

Unless you are saying that a non-Christian can go to heaven.


#48    Mnemonix

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

Also, we can't put all the blame on a child for his behavior. We also have to blame the parents. All children are born innocent, and require a parent to guide and teach them.

So considering how many people go to hell, can't we say that God is a very irresponsible "parent"?

Edited by Mnemonix, 25 May 2013 - 08:34 AM.


#49    Mnemonix

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:00 PM

Haven't gotten any satisfying answers, and I still have more questions.


#50    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:08 PM

We all have to believe what we believe and find our own answers.  No one else can do our believing for us  If we are right, then we are right.  If not, we are wrong.  Either way whatever is the truth will remain whatever it is.


#51    Amalthe

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:50 AM

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

My view is that a loving and merciful God with unlimited power would not let anyone die forever, because a simple human parent would not want that for their precious child. If God truly loved his creation, he would go to whatever extent to save him. But from what I can see, he doesn't.

So , lets say you have 100 children, and your firstborn thinks he has right to exploit and torture other 99. He is strongest and he can't be defeated by other 99 who just want to live their life in peace.
And you did everything in your power to teach your firstborn to care about others, but he just wouldn't listen.
So there is nothing left for you to do to change his ways. So what would you do to protect other 99 good kids?

I don't know what's the problem about eternal death. There are so many atheists in the world who are perfectly fine with notion that after thier death, nothing will remain, so why dying should be a problem for anyone?

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

How can I love a God who, as an example, destroys my children or family because they didn't accept his religion while I did?

If you are a Christian, you may or may not experience this second death.

But if you are not a Christian, you do.

Unless you are saying that a non-Christian can go to heaven.

Hm, judging by your words , you seem to not have read or understood at all what I wrote in previous post regarding christianity. You seem to generalize all christians, yet I wasn't talking about official catholic church because that organization is everything Gods church shouldn't be.

So to repeat and simplify: God knows hearts of men. Being christian as a member of Christian church is no ticket to heaven. But Christ teaches that Gods character is humility and service to the others. Any person who believes that humility and service to others are right thing to do, does Gods will and has Christs character, therefore is saved. Doesn't matter what deity he believes in. This is only logically possible explanation if we assume that God is mercifull and just.


#52    Mnemonix

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostAmalthe, on 27 May 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Hm, judging by your words , you seem to not have read or understood at all what I wrote in previous post regarding christianity. You seem to generalize all christians, yet I wasn't talking about official catholic church because that organization is everything Gods church shouldn't be.

Hm, you're right. I didn't understand what you wrote because I understood that non-Christians go straight to Hell.

Thanks for your input, anyway, I appreciate them, but they do not satisfy my doubts and questions.

View PostAmalthe, on 27 May 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

So to repeat and simplify: God knows hearts of men. Being christian as a member of Christian church is no ticket to heaven. But Christ teaches that Gods character is humility and service to the others. Any person who believes that humility and service to others are right thing to do, does Gods will and has Christs character, therefore is saved. Doesn't matter what deity he believes in. This is only logically possible explanation if we assume that God is mercifull and just.

See me in Heaven, then.

Edited by Mnemonix, 30 May 2013 - 09:09 AM.


#53    Amalthe

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:52 AM

View PostMnemonix, on 30 May 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hm, you're right. I didn't understand what you wrote because I understood that non-Christians go straight to Hell.
Thanks for your input, anyway, I appreciate them, but they do not satisfy my doubts and questions.
See me in Heaven, then.

For me, question will i go to heaven or not is irrelevant. I really don't mind eternally dying. I would probably trade my spot with people dear to me which didn't make it to heaven.
But anyway, it's not fair if you quit now this discussion, after i made an effort to set up the case to explain Gods character. So i would really like to know what would you do in this situation:

Lets say you have 100 children, and your firstborn thinks he has right to exploit and torture other 99. He is strongest and he can't be defeated by other 99 who just want to live their life in peace.
And you did everything in your power to teach your firstborn to care about others, but he just wouldn't listen.
So there is nothing left for you to do to change his ways. So what would you do to protect other 99 good kids?


#54    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:20 AM

I figure probably we are on earth to learn how to live in Heaven.  Heaven is not a place but an association of beings, and they need to know how to associate and how to appreciate life before they can be there.

It probably takes many lifetimes to learn what we need to know, maybe even with a few stints in Hell.


#55    J. K.

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:25 PM

God has been mentioned here as being a loving parent.  If human parents expressed love in the same way that some posters have demanded of God, then our children would never leave home, never get jobs, never bear any responsibilities.  As parents, we realize that our children have to learn to make decisions for themselves at a certain point in their lives.

Edited by J. K., 03 June 2013 - 08:26 PM.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#56    himalyanmystic

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:50 AM

View PostMnemonix, on 21 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Assuming you believe in God


Here's another one I don't get.

How do I put this...

God is omnipotent and can do anything with zero effort, such as create the whole universe and all its complexities, such as quantum mechanics or whatever. He's also all-knowing, infinite in everything, and the most merciful, whatever.

So, in religions such as Islam and Christianity, you go to Hell if you don't believe in said religion. In Islam, you apparently go to Hell, even if you're a good person but do not pray 5 times a day and follow the other teachings (according to someone I know).

God created Hell for the non-believers and the wicked people (and Jinns). In Islam, it is a place where you are tortured in the worst possible way for all eternity, where the fires are seven times hotter than the fire in this world.

So, why doesn't God just make us all believers? If someone is wicked, why not just make him good?That way that person doesn't hurt himself and others.

I know some people say, "No, that doesn't work, because you'll never learn from your mistakes, or you'll have no room to develop or find out who you really are in this world, ect, ect, ect.".

But I thought God could do anything, at least think outside the box.

Isn't God supposed to be loving and merciful? How is torturing someone for an eternity an act of love and mercy? If he only loves the believers, that is not unconditional love.These are human souls that are going to be tortured, that feel pain and sadness and were once innocent when they came into this world. Shouldn't God understand that since he created them?

Alright, let's move on to something else. Let's talk about the universe.

We all know the universe is big, it's so big, no human mind can comprehend it. Even the distance between two stars is so big our minds can't comprehend it, although we can calculate it. And there are trillions of stars in this galaxy, and there are trillions of other galaxies out there, and trillions of groups of galaxies out there. You get what I am saying, its a big universe. God created all of it.

Now, I, like every other human, am very small compared to the universe. So small it's beyond compare to the rest of the universe, I think you'll all agree. And, I, as a small human, would no even think of putting even my worst enemy through the hell god created.

But God, who created the big, big universe, would.

So how big is God's mercy compared to the rest of the universe? Did he create something bigger than his own attribute? I'm such a small human, and I have that much mercy, and it's nothing compared to God's mercy and love which is supposed to be bigger than the universe's because God can't create something bigger or grander than himself.

Also, I don't think any parent would want their children to burn in hell. So did God create a love greater than His? Or are human souls so expendable to God? What if God were to burn your children in Hell? How would you feel?

And, God cannot be harmed, I can. So why should he be angry at anything? He has it all, all the time, anything he wants he gets.

I hope I didn't miss out on anything, I hope that gives you something to think about.

It gave me something to think about.

Thank you.

So, why doesn't God just make everyone good, believers, whatever, and not go to hell?


Plain and simple, no pain, no suffering, unconditional love, thinking out of the box.


But I think I agree with some of the members here, maybe religion is just man's way of controlling people. If there's a god out there, we probably don't know anything about what he is like.
A religion is a belief system created according to needs of a region , A messenger, A prophet creates and expounds it, Rules and guidelines are set, for those who are of wicked mind fear is used to control, for those of loving nature noble ideas are used , compassion is promoted, These systems keep humanity in control , The basic idea of belief systems is to restore order, control debauchery, give faith and hope and give general guidelines .
Control of expressions related to lust, anger , ego, attachments etc that drive us to do good and bad, God as the supreme entity, so that even a great king would somewhere hesitate in doing harm to others, punishment for sins and rewards for good deeds , promotion of service of humanity.
The prophets and messengers have no disagreements they know what is best for the group of ppl they guide but the people are different , time to time every religion gets some corrupt ppl who get authority they give their own ideas, ppl monopolise religions, every one wants to own the patent of holiness yet it belongs to the entire humanity,
Any scholar who is good in a particular area and has relatively more knowledge can become a religious head in that area he can use the authority to do good or he can Do bad but eventually everyone ends up doing a bit of both, admitting mistakes helps evolution covering them up or denying causes problems, fear is necessary but a god who made so much beauty and such a vast existance has to be a compassionate supremely inteligent and awesome.
Interpretation of knowledge of holy books is the problem some scholars interpret in one way others have different opinions the common man has the result confusion.
Only simple ideas are needed for religion.To minimise confusion.Religion is designed for the common man for every person of every nation ,state , town , village and square,
Any religion is basically for humanity, i think if a person learns well atleast he can help his children to understand,
I have gone through long periods of confusion for years and now still trying to understand why so much confusion exists............
Knowledge should be clear, pure and available in distilled form so that atleast one with the right intention may benefit and not be confused i hope i will also locate works of othe people who spent their lives inquiring about the true nature of things.....................

[HIMALAYANMYSTIC

#57    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

Religions are a particular form of ideology taking a supernatural source for its authority.  Other than that, they are subject to the same flaws as other ideologies, the main one being that dogma gets in the way of reality.





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