185 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

Vox, on 18 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

How about this for immortality...

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. Therefore what makes me, me, will exist forever. Time can be portrayed as infinite, so hopefully what makes me, me will assemble again some time in the future, as per the blind watchmaker principle. Since I can only recollect what happens during consciousness, my memories will be lost (as a consequence of 'death') but my consciousness will be forever enduring as I live each 'episode' in my other respective 'lives'.

So a theory on immortality without mentioning God...

Yup, I don't listen to myself much either!

I understand that idea well Vox, but there are other more profound consequences of the blind watch maker and infinity. In the end logic dictates that the watch maker can no longer remain blind .

Edited by Seeker79, 19 October 2012 - 04:29 AM.

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 13 October 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

.
Plural of anecdote does not make true, but the more plural it becomes the more likely it is.

Are you saying that if enough people say it ,it becomes true .seems you are lining yourself up with the likes of
William James (1842-1910) The father of modern Psychology "There's nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it." and Joseph Goebbels who said something similar

fullywired

[Seeker79]

fullywired, on 19 October 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Are you saying that if enough people say it ,it becomes true .seems you are lining yourself up with the likes of
William James (1842-1910) The father of modern Psychology "There's nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it." and Joseph Goebbels who said something similar

                                     fullywired

If I murder Somone and one person says they saw me do it. Or If 50 people saw me do it. Is it more or less LIKELY that I did it? Granted the 49 people could be parroting the 1st. Someone could have dressed up like me and did it, or they could just be suffering a mass delusion ( the standard answer implausible answer form skeptics these days it seems). All these things are possible, but the likely hood rests in that I probably did it despite your pet theory that Im a good person and could not possibly murder anyone.

The fact of the matter is that no one really doubts that NDEs occur, so annacdote argument is mute anyway. It's the nature of what is happening that is being debated.

[Mikami]

I used to not believe in the afterlife....until I took an arrow to the knee..

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 19 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

.

The fact of the matter is that no one really doubts that NDEs occur, so annacdote argument is mute anyway. It's the nature of what is happening that is being debated.

Exactly and what is happening can be induced chemically as demonstrated in the following article

"Near-death experiences can be produced using a drug called ketamine which blocks receptors in the brain for the neurotransmitter glutamate. All features of a classic near-death experience can be produced by the intravenous administration of 50 - 100 mg of ketamine. Ketamine is a short-acting, hallucinogenic, dissociative anesthetic related to phencyclidine. Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anesthetic for children. Anesthetists attempt to prevent patients from having near-death experiences (so-called "emergence phenomena") by the co-administration of benzodiazepines and other sedative substances which produce "true" unconsciousness rather than dissociation.
Ketamine produces an altered state of consciousness that is very different from that of the "psychedelic" drugs such as LSD. It can produce all the features of the near-death experience, including travel through a dark tunnel into light, the conviction that one is dead, telepathic communion with God, visions, out-of-body experiences and mystical states. If given intravenously, it has a short action with an abrupt end. One ketamine user talked of "becoming a disembodied mind or soul, dying and going to another world." Childhood events may also be re-lived. The loss of contact with ordinary reality and the sense of participation in another reality are more pronounced and less easily resisted than is usually the case with LSD. The dissociative experiences often seem so genuine that users are not sure that they have not actually left their bodies.
Timothy Leary, a psychologist who experimented with LSD, described ketamine as "experiments in voluntary death." One ketamine user, who reported a classic near-death experience, stated: "I was convinced I was dead. I was floating above my body. I reviewed all of the events of my life and saw a lot of areas where I could have done better." The psychiatrist, Stanislav Grof, stated: "If you have a full-blown experience of ketamine, you can never believe there is death or that death can possibly influence who you are." Ketamine allows some patients to reason that "the strange, unexpected intensity and unfamiliar dimension of their experience means they must have died."

near-death.com/experiences/paranormal12.html



"The fact of the matter is that no one really doubts that NDEs occur,"


and how do you know what everyone really doubts or doesn't

fullywired

[Seeker79]

fullywired, on 21 October 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Exactly and what is happening can be induced chemically as demonstrated in the following article

"Near-death experiences can be produced using a drug called ketamine which blocks receptors in the brain for the neurotransmitter glutamate. All features of a classic near-death experience can be produced by the intravenous administration of 50 - 100 mg of ketamine. Ketamine is a short-acting, hallucinogenic, dissociative anesthetic related to phencyclidine. Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anesthetic for children. Anesthetists attempt to prevent patients from having near-death experiences (so-called "emergence phenomena") by the co-administration of benzodiazepines and other sedative substances which produce "true" unconsciousness rather than dissociation.
Ketamine produces an altered state of consciousness that is very different from that of the "psychedelic" drugs such as LSD. It can produce all the features of the near-death experience, including travel through a dark tunnel into light, the conviction that one is dead, telepathic communion with God, visions, out-of-body experiences and mystical states. If given intravenously, it has a short action with an abrupt end. One ketamine user talked of "becoming a disembodied mind or soul, dying and going to another world." Childhood events may also be re-lived. The loss of contact with ordinary reality and the sense of participation in another reality are more pronounced and less easily resisted than is usually the case with LSD. The dissociative experiences often seem so genuine that users are not sure that they have not actually left their bodies.
Timothy Leary, a psychologist who experimented with LSD, described ketamine as "experiments in voluntary death." One ketamine user, who reported a classic near-death experience, stated: "I was convinced I was dead. I was floating above my body. I reviewed all of the events of my life and saw a lot of areas where I could have done better." The psychiatrist, Stanislav Grof, stated: "If you have a full-blown experience of ketamine, you can never believe there is death or that death can possibly influence who you are." Ketamine allows some patients to reason that "the strange, unexpected intensity and unfamiliar dimension of their experience means they must have died."

near-death.com/experiences/paranormal12.html



"The fact of the matter is that no one really doubts that NDEs occur,"


and how do you know what everyone really doubts or doesn't

                             fullywired

Hahaha,  Well given that there are volumes of books explaining it away, I think it's a fair bet that most people don't doubt that the experience is happening. You can if you want to.  

Have you read through the thread? I have addressed the ketamine example and the incredible illogical conclusions surrounded induced events at least half a dozen times in these NDE threads.... With zero challenges by the way.

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 21 October 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Hahaha,  Well given that there are volumes of books explaining it away, I think it's a fair bet that most people don't doubt that the experience is happening. You can if you want to.  

Have you read through the thread? I have addressed the ketamine example and the incredible illogical conclusions surrounded induced events at least half a dozen times in these NDE threads.... With zero challenges by the way.

I am not disputing that people have undergone some kind of experience only the cause of it ,I object to the title near death experience ,when it is nothing of the kind and as I stated can be induced by drugs What are the "incredible illogical conclusions" you jumped to and dismissed  No I haven't read through all the thread  because this subject comes up at least once a month and there is nothing in the thread that hasn't been said lots of times over the years on here,The point is believers want to believe in an afterlife and nothing is going to stop them construing anything  to convince themselves they are right

   fullywired

[Seeker79]

fullywired, on 21 October 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I am not disputing that people have undergone some kind of experience only the cause of it ,I object to the title near death experience ,when it is nothing of the kind and as I stated can be induced by drugs What are the "incredible illogical conclusions" you jumped to and dismissed  No I haven't read through all the thread  because this subject comes up at least once a month and there is nothing in the thread that hasn't been said lots of times over the years on here,The point is believers want to believe in an afterlife and nothing is going to stop them construing anything  to convince themselves they are right

                                               fullywired

Well then Mabey if you had you might be able to address my arguments directly instead of generally. The cause of the NDE/OBEs is obvious. Trauma and altered states of conciousness. I don't even need ketamine, I can do it with meditation. Ill post one of the arguments one more time just for you. It's vastly illogical to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't while you assume the conclusion.

---There is no such thing as a spiritual experience, because there is no such thing as spiritual----

This is not a logical argument.

Also any and all attempts to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't by sugesting  that altering brain chemistry makes it purely a physical experience is a completely irrelevant argument. As I have stated for the umteenth time, this argument is purely assuming that the brain is a producer of conciousness while the typical spiritual inturpretation is the the brain is a receiver of it. any sort of monkeying with the brain will produce oddities wether a receiver or producer, so your ketamine example or any other induction method is not evidence for anything because it's evidence for both assumptions.

Furthermore, I have looked and looked, and there is not a single record of a ketamine experience nearly as elaborate and detailed as the stereo typical NDEs. At most superficial experiences. If you have an account please post it. I'd love to see it. Even DMT experiences have their own twist to them and do not really resemble the standard progression of NDEs

Furthermore x 2, the corolation between induceing an experience, then saying the experience doesn't exist in reality is ludacrress. A brain surgeon can probably make you experience your feet being hot, but that does not mean heat does not exist, it only means that a doctor can monkey with your preceptions. The natural state of the perception is not in question.

Every single argument skeptics have to invalidate the spiritual nature of NDEs/OBEs does not hold up to real scrutinty. It's mostly just shaking a stick at the moon.

[Habitat]

I have no problem at all with the idea that ketamine experiences and NDE's and much more can open the gates of heaven, whatever causes people to go out of themselves will correspondingly have the void filled by the 'other world'.....the kingdom of heaven is within you, God is near at hand. The idea that a chemical imbalance cannot give rise to a genuine experience of the divine is an assumption that ought to be put on hold, imo. Our customary mode of mentation is prohibitive of such experiences, transcendence as the mystics tell us, requires only that we go out of ourselves, in order to be filled by that which we only dimly perceive otherwise.

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Well then Mabey if you had you might be able to address my arguments directly instead of generally. The cause of the NDE/OBEs is obvious. Trauma and altered states of conciousness. I don't even need ketamine, I can do it with meditation. Ill post one of the arguments one more time just for you. It's vastly illogical to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't while you assume the conclusion.

---There is no such thing as a spiritual experience, because there is no such thing as spiritual----

This is not a logical argument.

Also any and all attempts to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't by sugesting  that altering brain chemistry makes it purely a physical experience is a completely irrelevant argument. As I have stated for the umteenth time, this argument is purely assuming that the brain is a producer of conciousness while the typical spiritual inturpretation is the the brain is a receiver of it. any sort of monkeying with the brain will produce oddities wether a receiver or producer, so your ketamine example or any other induction method is not evidence for anything because it's evidence for both assumptions.

Furthermore, I have looked and looked, and there is not a single record of a ketamine experience nearly as elaborate and detailed as the stereo typical NDEs. At most superficial experiences. If you have an account please post it. I'd love to see it. Even DMT experiences have their own twist to them and do not really resemble the standard progression of NDEs

Furthermore x 2, the corolation between induceing an experience, then saying the experience doesn't exist in reality is ludacrress. A brain surgeon can probably make you experience your feet being hot, but that does not mean heat does not exist, it only means that a doctor can monkey with your preceptions. The natural state of the perception is not in question.

Every single argument skeptics have to invalidate the spiritual nature of NDEs/OBEs does not hold up to real scrutinty. It's mostly just shaking a stick at the moon.

First let me make you aware that you are not imparting pearls of wisdom all you are doing is rehashing  an already over rehashed
subject and how anyone can suggest that that an NDE  somehow gives us a glimpse of an afterlife and then talks of logic in the same breath beats me.
What makes you the arbiter on what is relevant on the subject
You make sweeping statements telling us you have read EVERY report on the drug induced and found them wanting and won't stand  scrutiny .I suggest you carry on looking at the reports and forget the spiritual clap trap

fullywired

[Seeker79]

fullywired, on 22 October 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

First let me make you aware that you are not imparting pearls of wisdom all you are doing is rehashing  an already over rehashed
subject and how anyone can suggest that that an NDE  somehow gives us a glimpse of an afterlife and then talks of logic in the same breath beats me.
What makes you the arbiter on what is relevant on the subject
You make sweeping statements telling us you have read EVERY report on the drug induced and found them wanting and won't stand  scrutiny .I suggest you carry on looking at the reports and forget the spiritual clap trap

fullywired

If by "rehashing", you mean you spewing more logical fallcies  and ignoring actual arguments, then yes i would have to agree with you. How anyone can continue to suggest a person is being illogical while engrossed in fallacys is also a curiosity for me. Here let me help:
http://www.amazon.co...i/dp/0471799416

I did not make any sweeping statements, I have looked and i havnt seen any ketamin experiences that would mimic typical NDEs...Have you? By all means share.

Im not an arbiter, I made several arguments to show that induced expereinces, weather ketamine or some other method, are irrelvent for very specific reasons. Instead of adressing the argument you choose to ridicule ( apeal to ridicule), Say im trying to be an arbiter of what is relevent and what is not (Straw man), I have not read EVERY roport, i was asking for the one you read (another straw man), "spiritual clap clap", (yet another apeal to ridicule).

Im sorry, i dont you think you have an argument to opose mine. Obviously not a logical one anyway. An Opinion....sure.... a logical oposing arguments....Nop. But thats right, you are a veteren at this subject, and you dont feel like rehashing it even though all you yourself have presented is simple parroting, full of grevious logic. OOOOKKKKKK

Edited by Seeker79, 22 October 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

If by "rehashing", you mean you spewing more logical fallcies  and ignoring actual arguments, then yes i would have to agree with you. How anyone can continue to suggest a person is being illogical while engrossed in fallacys is also a curiosity for me. Here let me help:
http://www.amazon.co...i/dp/0471799416

I did not make any sweeping statements, I have looked and i havnt seen any ketamin experiences that would mimic typical NDEs...Have you? By all means share.

Im not an arbiter, I made several arguments to show that induced expereinces, weather ketamine or some other method, are irrelvent for very specific reasons. Instead of adressing the argument you choose to ridicule ( apeal to ridicule), Say im trying to be an arbiter of what is relevent and what is not (Straw man), I have not read EVERY roport, i was asking for the one you read (another straw man), "spiritual clap clap", (yet another apeal to ridicule).

Im sorry, i dont you think you have an argument to opose mine. Obviously not a logical one anyway. An Opinion....sure.... a logical oposing arguments....Nop. But thats right, you are a veteren at this subject, and you dont feel like rehashing it even though all you yourself have presented is simple parroting, full of grevious logic. OOOOKKKKKK

Now don't loose your cool just because people don't agree with you,if you can't stand criticism try posting in the beliefs section,when you post in this section you invite skepticism .and  to say someone is ridiculing  the argument I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you use the  word  ridiculous to counter the arguments.I parroted nothing, I merely posted an article  from  reliable sources ,no less than Edinburgh University, Cambridge and New York State university but  you want us to disregard these learned bodies and accept  your version ,well I hope you don't mind but I will stick with the more educated version

    fullywired

[Rlyeh]

Vox, on 18 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

How about this for immortality...

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. Therefore what makes me, me, will exist forever. Time can be portrayed as infinite, so hopefully what makes me, me will assemble again some time in the future, as per the blind watchmaker principle. Since I can only recollect what happens during consciousness, my memories will be lost (as a consequence of 'death') but my consciousness will be forever enduring as I live each 'episode' in my other respective 'lives'.

So a theory on immortality without mentioning God...

A misunderstanding of the term energy. Energy isn't conscious, its the potential of a system to do work.
http://physics.about...ry/g/energy.htm

[Seeker79]

fullywired, on 23 October 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Now don't loose your cool just because people don't agree with you,if you can't stand criticism try posting in the beliefs section,when you post in this section you invite skepticism .and  to say someone is ridiculing  the argument I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you use the  word  ridiculous to counter the arguments.I parroted nothing, I merely posted an article  from  reliable sources ,no less than Edinburgh University, Cambridge and New York State university but  you want us to disregard these learned bodies and accept  your version ,well I hope you don't mind but I will stick with the more educated version

                                fullywired

You did not see the big smile faces did you? I enjoy these discussions otherwise I would not participate. You are still engrossed in it.  this time apeals to authority with an ad homonym thrown in.  

If you can understand that, you will understand my response to your articles.

But please please please do not continue to to suggest other people are illogical when you yourself don't seem to even understand the concept. I gave you a resource. If you read it, you might be able to critically look at your own "educated" sources.

[fullywired]

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

.

But please please please do not continue to to suggest other people are illogical when you yourself don't seem to even understand the concept. I gave you a resource. If you read it, you might be able to critically look at your own "educated" sources.

I have no intention of entering a slanging match with you about what is logical and what is not but I will take the experts view on the matter which coincides with my own musings and leave you to your own views however mistaken they are
  May all your NDEs be happy ones

   fullywired