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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'


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#46    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 09 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Posted Image

Rods.  Skyfish.

Never heard of them will check it out


#47    Oppono Astos

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 09 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Posted Image

Rods.  Skyfish.
Rods = Insects

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#48    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostOppono Astos, on 09 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Rods = Insects

That would seem to be the case... not quite sure how they make crop circles tho?


#49    Hasina

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:



That would seem to be the case... not quite sure how they make crop circles tho?
Didn't you read the OP? No wait, you made it. They use microwaves, there's microwave evidence in the plants, maybe the rods produce microwaves to travel fast and crop circles are the by product of their mating habits! OCCAM'S RAZOR!

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#50    bison

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:04 PM

Newton said: 'We are to admit no more causes of *natural* things than such as are true, and explain their appearance'. I see a problem here. Crop circles are not, for the most part, a natural phenomenon. Can Occam's razor be reliably applied where either human or extraterrestrial artifice is involved? I'm not at all certain it can be. Will an intelligent being always act in the simplest and most obvious way? I scarcely think so.
Take, for example, an objection to the extraterrestrial explanation for crop circles: That it is illogical for extraterrestrials to come all the way to Earth, just to press patterns into grain fields, and remain in hiding, instead of overtly revealing themselves. The simplest course of action is the latter. There may be good reasons for the the former course, though. If we do not know this reason, we may dismiss the extraterrestrial possibility out of hand, as more complex, and so, not conforming to Occam's razor. The value of a worthy principle like Occam's razor is only as good as our understanding of the situation to which it is applied.
The fact that some crop circles are known to have been made by human beings tempts us to suppose that they all are. This explanation seems to be the simplest available, and so, by William of Occam's estimable reasoning, the best. There is a problem here, too, though. There are eyewitness accounts of  crop circles being made in moments, with no human involvement, and other accounts of their having appeared too soon after a field was last seen unmarked, for human construction to be credible.
It may, of course, be objected that the witnesses lied. Funny, though, that's what Thomas Jefferson said about two astronomers who said they'd seen rocks fall from the sky. He couldn't believe such a thing could happen, so the simplest, and best explanation was that they had lied. Today we know and accept rocks from the sky as meteorites.

Edited by bison, 09 January 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#51    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostHasina, on 09 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Didn't you read the OP? No wait, you made it. They use microwaves, there's microwave evidence in the plants, maybe the rods produce microwaves to travel fast and crop circles are the by product of their mating habits! OCCAM'S RAZOR!

Now that is new theory that I for one have never heard before! mating rods ? but I think you may get stiff opposition from some quarters with that one....


#52    Hasina

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:



Now that is new theory that I for one have never heard before! mating rods ? but I think you may get stiff opposition from some quarters with that one....
I did just make it up :3 wouldn't explain a few things. If rods give off microwaves, why don't they damage electrical equipment? My answer to keep my wacky theory going, they only produce the microwaves during mating or their mating dances, which, when performed in a crop field, produces crop circles. I ain't saying it's true, but I do like making up theories.

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#53    Sweetpumper

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

Mating rods that create beautiful patterns.  They sometimes also move intelligently and resemble metallic spheres.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

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#54    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View Postbison, on 09 January 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Newton said: 'We are to admit no more causes of *natural* things than such as are true, and explain their appearance'. I see a problem here. Crop circles are not, for the most part, a natural phenomenon. Can Occam's razor be reliably applied where either human or extraterrestrial artifice is involved? I'm not at all certain it can be. Will an intelligent being always act in the simplest and most obvious way? I scarcely think so.
Take, for example, an objection to the extraterrestrial explanation for crop circles: That it is illogical for extraterrestrials to come all the way to Earth, just to press patterns into grain fields, and remain in hiding, instead of overtly revealing themselves. The simplest course of action is the latter. There may be good reasons for the the former course, though. If we do not know this reason, we may dismiss the extraterrestrial possibility out of hand, as more complex, and so, not conforming to Occam's razor. The value of a worthy principle like Occam's razor is only as good as our understanding of the situation to which it is applied.
The fact that some crop circles are known to have been made by human beings tempts us to suppose that they all are. This explanation seems to be the simplest available, and so, by William of Occam's estimable reasoning, the best. There is a problem here, too, though. There are eyewitness accounts of  crop circles being made in moments, with no human involvement, and other accounts of their having appeared too soon after a field was last seen unmarked, for human construction to be credible.
It may, of course, be objected that the witnesses lied. Funny, though, that's what Thomas Jefferson said about two astronomers who said they'd seen rocks fall from the sky. He couldn't believe such a thing could happen, so the simplest, and best explanation was that they had lied. Today we know and accept rocks from the sky as meteorites.

Thank you for your interesting post. I did note in the Newton quote the word 'natural' but I don't think Newton would object to us applying the Occum Razor principle or his definition to our present problem after all much of his work seems to have involved heavenly bodies. Agreed that an intelligent bearing may not always act in the simplest and most logical way, be that 'being' human or not?
As you say we do not know the motive behind the foreign intelligence that seems to be creating some of these designs which might be of a spiritual nature.
Because of the evidence in the crops of microwave radiation being used to make the designs, a technique not available or known to humans, and the considerable body of evidence that some of these designs appear very quickly without humans present it would be reasonable to say that on a balance of probability some of these designs have a non earthly origin.
This is because another important word in Newton's definition is 'True'; we can only consider matters that are true. The evidence in the crops is true, the many accounts of their creation quickly without human involvement does seem to be true( subject to witness unreliability ), the designs are there on the landscape - true. On the other hand for someone to say that all designs are human merely on the basis that we do not understand the reason why they are there is no great argument particularly when some designs do contain math and geometric messages. Is this the only evidence of a foreign intellience at working our world?
Probably not ; there have been many sightings by reliable witnesses of unidentified flying objects. Many can be discounted but surely a reasonable person would keep an open mind on that matter.  
At first sight it would appear that Occum's Razor supports the human creation of all crop circles but when one considers the evidence, factual evidence, against this proposal it becomes untenable and the simplest solution is that some of these designs are foreign


#55    DingoLingo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

If we have crop designs that defy human logic

Ok what you really need to say is defy believers logic.. not human logic..

Human logic is humans made this.. believers logic is either A - Aliens did.. or B its spiritual

so please.. dont lump humanity as a whole into the defying logic bit

http://www.telegraph...microwaves.html

and if you do a bit of a search around you can find out how to make your own magnetron using parts from a microwave oven and a battery..


#56    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostDingoLingo, on 09 January 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:


Ok what you really need to say is defy believers logic.. not human logic..

Human logic is humans made this.. believers logic is either A - Aliens did.. or B its spiritual

so please.. dont lump humanity as a whole into the defying logic bit

http://www.telegraph...microwaves.html

and if you do a bit of a search around you can find out how to make your own magnetron using parts from a microwave oven and a battery..

So with the above and all other current evidence, and Occams Razor - Simple answer, Man made.

Case closed.

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#57    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

View PostHasina, on 09 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I did just make it up :3 wouldn't explain a few things. If rods give off microwaves, why don't they damage electrical equipment? My answer to keep my wacky theory going, they only produce the microwaves during mating or their mating dances, which, when performed in a crop field, produces crop circles. I ain't saying it's true, but I do like making up theories.

It is an interesting theory and making up theories is a sign of good imagination and a fertile mind. Don't know what Freud would have made of it tho ?


#58    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:27 PM

View Postlaver, on 09 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

It is an interesting theory and making up theories is a sign of good imagination and a fertile mind. Don't know what Freud would have made of it tho ?
Freud would have blamed our mothers ;)

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Only I will remain.

#59    laver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:42 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 09 January 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Freud would have blamed our mothers ;)

Probably... weird guy!


#60    Esoteric Toad

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:51 AM

View PostSweetpumper, on 09 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Mating rods that create beautiful patterns.  They sometimes also move intelligently and resemble metallic spheres.

And let's not forget orbs :tu:





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