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Other side of gun ownership


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#226    Stellar

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:44 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 14 January 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

Fair enough, that's where our disagreement lies.  I believe you can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively as a juvenile.

A lot of states in the U.S. happen to agree with me. http://www.the-deer-...tes-d-n-r-s/  I had found a nice little chart that listed all the states, but this link will take you to any states home page for hunting regulations.  Being from Ohio, I know 16 year olds are allowed to hunt without direct adult supervision.

I agree with you that children can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively. No disagreement there. My concern is that I don't consider children in general responsible enough to make the right decisions and to make the right choices all the time. Children (in general) are not fully developed and they do not have the life experience that adults do. That's why there is a mandatory age of 18 before children can make their own decisions without parental consent on many important issues. Children are also much more impressionable and subject to a lot of peer pressure while in school.  To add to this, being a child in school can be quite turbulent, full of various emotions, some highs and some lows. Children don't always share these experiences with their parents either, so many parents may not even know that something is wrong at school. Furthermore, I also believe that society has been trying to shield children from failure, from trouble and from negativity to the point that children more and more are unable to deal with a negative event or situation. This is a recipe for disaster in my mind, and while I don't doubt that the majority of kids are stable enough to know not to grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people, I feel that we should not make it possible for that small minority to do so by allowing them access to a firearm. I understand that 18 is not some magical number where a child all of a sudden becomes responsible and trust worthy, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

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#227    F3SS

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

Green dude, clarity is key. Some of these people are really picturing a 4 year old with his own gun carrying it around like their favorite toy truck.
Same for everybody. Clarity is key to important debates like this. What are we, politicians? Lets cut the vagueness and if I'm guilty of it, lemme know.


#228    green_dude777

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 14 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Dude, are you sure you're a liberal? You really don't sound like one.



I can't say I completely identify with any political affiliate, but I would be considered more liberal than my peers that I grew up with.  I think all children across the world (not just the U.S.) should have food, shelter, and education.  I think gay people should have the same rights as straight people (to be honest, I don't think anyone should have to identify as being gay or straight), I think abortion is an issue that only women should have a say (meaning, no male should have a say in any laws pertaining to abortion), and I think religion should be a private matter.

All that doesn't really jive with the conservative republican party.


#229    freetoroam

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

View Postaztek, on 14 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

well it is your job as a parent to teach your kids responcibuility, and if you lived in usa you would go to jail just for letting your 7 years old be home alone even for 5 min.
NO WAY? :cry:  5 mins, what about if you want to do a bit of gardening, do you have to take them with you to prune the roses?

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#230    HerNibs

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:48 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 14 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Dude, are you sure you're a liberal? You really don't sound like one.


Aright well instead of keep on stating such simple things could you help the argument by providing details?
So you can buy a handgun, legally, without a background check? The FBI does background checks and I'm sure they keep track of them.
Rifles and shotguns, what's the process there?
You can't keep saying things that sound bad without providing details. I'm sure you don't want to but you aren't helping out getting things figured out. You keep telling everybody that you can 'just go get one'. There must be more to it. If not, why? Is all you have to do is show proof of age and that's it? I'm not berating but it's hard to have a debate without the facts.

I've said it a million times now.  I can sell my guns (any kind) to my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified.  I can buy a gun from my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified.  I don't have to register the gun at all.  Not a hand gun or any other kind.

Now, if my neighbor sells me this gun and I act like a fool and leave it in a closet or drawer and some one takes it...how would anyone know where the gun came from other than tracking back to a manufacturer?

They won't be able to.

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#231    HerNibs

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 14 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Its a different lifestyle we live and completely different mindset. My son had Thomas the Tank engine and power rangers, he was taught to read books and has lots of them ....we played games and I took him to museums often, but guns? no way.

Yeah, we did the same with our kids.  Museums, galleries, travel, all big readers, seminars, games and taught them about weapons.  

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#232    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 14 January 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

It really isn't astonishing,

To me the idea of handing a small child their own gun is astonishing  to me and those like myself who do not come from the same culture..  I read it and it did floor me..   You have to take yourself out of your OWN minset, and think of how anyone else who do not belong to your country and culture would look at that ?  If you can do that, then you gain some understanding

Quote

and setting up an insult with 'I am not here to put you down' doesn't change the fact that it's an insult.

It is not an insult... I did find it mad for any child to have a deadly weapon in their possession..  If you find that insulting, report my post that states as such.. I think you will find that anyone reading can tell I was taken back by it. .I have never n my life read anything like that before.....ever ! I noted I was taken back and found it astonishing.. that itself is not insulting..

Quote

I am not crazy, and my father isn't crazy   

No one has said you were..Not you personally..

This is what you are overlooking ..  I am from a culture that do not own guns, not many of us will  do..  My country is not the same as your own in regards to gun handling . You should think of that, and understand why anyone like myself would find a 4 year old with their own deadly weapon  is shocking...

I can fully understand parents with guns bought to protect their little children, but a little child with their own to protect themselves and their family if needed, is a crazy idea to me...   Its the parents job and responsibility to protect their kids, and I see no problem with that,  as I can see that the USA is a bit different from the UK and Ireland.. But come on small children?  That's just not right

There is no way on earth I would allow my own children handle anything that is dangerous, let alone a gun..holy good gumdrops that is just not something I could ever consider

I didn't make my post to insult you personally.. I looked at the post as a 4 year old with their own gun and that's all l could see.. If you cannot understand how that could shock me, then you obviously look at it one sided..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 14 January 2013 - 10:35 PM.

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#233    F3SS

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 14 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:



I can't say I completely identify with any political affiliate, but I would be considered more liberal than my peers that I grew up with.  I think all children across the world (not just the U.S.) should have food, shelter, and education.  I think gay people should have the same rights as straight people (to be honest, I don't think anyone should have to identify as being gay or straight), I think abortion is an issue that only women should have a say (meaning, no male should have a say in any laws pertaining to abortion), and I think religion should be a private matter.

All that doesn't really jive with the conservative republican party.
I gotcha. Well you're certainly conservative in this debate. And I pretty much agree with most of that too. I just don't think it's my responsibility to make sure those things happen. I have myself and those close to me to worry about. That doesn't mean I don't care or wouldn't help if I could. My problem with many liberals is that they demand that I or everyone for that matter take action, see it their way and do something about it or else you're a heartless selfish prick. Near as I can tell you seem too down to earth for that. Then again, this is the first we met on a subject we seem to agree about. But hey, that's all just my opinion which isn't really important so take it how you will.


#234    freetoroam

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostHerNibs, on 14 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Yeah, we did the same with our kids.  Museums, galleries, travel, all big readers, seminars, games and taught them about weapons.  

Nibs
i actually understand, as I have said, its a completely different lifestyle and mindset, personally, I feel safer with mine.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#235    HerNibs

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 14 January 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

i actually understand, as I have said, its a completely different lifestyle and mindset, personally, I feel safer with mine.

Ok.  I feel the same way about mine.

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#236    green_dude777

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:06 PM

View PostStellar, on 14 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I agree with you that children can be taught to be responsible enough to handle firearms effectively. No disagreement there. My concern is that I don't consider children in general responsible enough to make the right decisions and to make the right choices all the time. Children (in general) are not fully developed and they do not have the life experience that adults do. That's why there is a mandatory age of 18 before children can make their own decisions without parental consent on many important issues. Children are also much more impressionable and subject to a lot of peer pressure while in school.  To add to this, being a child in school can be quite turbulent, full of various emotions, some highs and some lows. Children don't always share these experiences with their parents either, so many parents may not even know that something is wrong at school. Furthermore, I also believe that society has been trying to shield children from failure, from trouble and from negativity to the point that children more and more are unable to deal with a negative event or situation. This is a recipe for disaster in my mind, and while I don't doubt that the majority of kids are stable enough to know not to grab a gun and shoot up a bunch of people, I feel that we should not make it possible for that small minority to do so by allowing them access to a firearm. I understand that 18 is not some magical number where a child all of a sudden becomes responsible and trust worthy, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Stellar, I'll say I agree with the overall theme you're communicating here. I would just like to see a certification process instead of setting an age, similar to driver's licenses.


Edit: Fixed your to you're

Edited by green_dude777, 14 January 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#237    F3SS

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:09 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 14 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

You have to take yourself out of your OWN minset, and think of how anyone else who do not belong to your country and culture would look at that ?  If you can do that, then you gain some understanding



Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?

View PostHerNibs, on 14 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:



I've said it a million times now.  I can sell my guns (any kind) to my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified.  I can buy a gun from my neighbor and the Fed will not be notified.  I don't have to register the gun at all.  Not a hand gun or any other kind.

Now, if my neighbor sells me this gun and I act like a fool and leave it in a closet or drawer and some one takes it...how would anyone know where the gun came from other than tracking back to a manufacturer?

They won't be able to.

Nibs
Alright well I decided to look for myself. There is no registry as you say. However, for gun show sales background checks are mandatory so there is reason to believe the FBI knows who's got or getting one. And I found this below and as it turns out the dealer absolutely keeps record of original sale so it is reasonable to believe that identification of a gun in an investigation would be reasonably simple and also simple to track it's path if the original purchaser was to sell it to somebody else unless the original owner is covering for whoever they sold it to thereby withholding information. So I don't think all these guns are floating around impossible to track if needed.

Quote

http://www.nraila.or...s/colorado.aspx
PURCHASE
There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Dealers are required to keep a record on the retail sale, rental, or exchange of  handguns.  The record shall include the name of the person to whom the handgun is transferred, his or her age, occupation, and residence, and the make, caliber, finish and serial number of the handgun, and the date of the transfer and name of employee making the transfer.  The record book shall be open at all times to the inspection of any duly authorized police officer.

Before a gun show vendor transfers or attempts to transfer a firearm at a gun show, he or she shall require that a background check, in accordance with the national instant criminal background check system, be conducted of the prospective transferee, and obtain approval of the transfer from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation through a licensed gun dealer.  It is also unlawful to transfer a firearm if any part of the transaction takes place at a gun show, unless a licensed dealer first obtains a background check on the prospective transferee. This does not apply to firearms defined as antiques, curios or relics under federal law.

A Colorado resident who is otherwise qualified can purchase or receive delivery of a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to Colorado, so long as the sale fully complies with the legal conditions of sale in both states and the purchaser and seller have complied with federal law applicable to interstate transactions.



#238    HerNibs

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 14 January 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?


Alright well I decided to look for myself. There is no registry as you say. However, for gun show sales background checks are mandatory so there is reason to believe the FBI knows who's got or getting one. And I found this below and as it turns out the dealer absolutely keeps record of original sale so it is reasonable to believe that identification of a gun in an investigation would be reasonably simple and also simple to track it's path if the original purchaser was to sell it to somebody else unless the original owner is covering for whoever they sold it to thereby withholding information. So I don't think all these guns are floating around impossible to track if needed.

Right.  ONLY if it is a dealer or at a gun show.  Private sales are not tracked or registered.  It's not a matter of covering for anything.  

Here is how I see it -

Manufacturer makes gun.
Manufacturer sells gun to dealer. (Tracked and recorded.)
Dealer sells to individual.  (Tracked and recorded.)
Individual A sells to individual B.  (No record)
Individual B sells to individual C.  (No record)
Individual C is robbed.  Gun that wasn't locked in safe is stolen.  Gun used in liquor store robbery in another city.

How is the gun traced?

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#239    aztek

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:29 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 14 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

NO WAY? :cry:  5 mins, what about if you want to do a bit of gardening, do you have to take them with you to prune the roses?
yea, you would be shocked if you knew all details on what you can't do with a kid. crazy. a friend of mine got arrested fro letting his 8 years old hold a pump while filling the car, mind you he was right next to him, drop of gas got in kids eye, he started screaming, and crying, ems came than cops, and my friend arrested for child endangerment.

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#240    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 14 January 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Ma'am, aren't you having a hard time doing the same?

I do not  ( and have noted a number of times over ) have a hard time understanding gun ownership.( Even though I do not live in the USA ) . I also do not have a hard time understand a parents right to protect their kids . What I do struggle with, is handing a small child so very young a deadly weapon..

Why?  Because even though there are no guns here, I still would not allow my own children handle ANYTHING dangerous..   If my daughter wants me to cut something and she needs sharp scissors  or a knife, I do it for her..  She can in time use them when she is ready..  I cannot imagine handling her a gun so young no..  Is there a problem with my statement?

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