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Viking mystery


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#31    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:15 AM

One thing to consider: a really bad epidemic might not leave any traces discoverable at this late date. If everybody dies, nobody gets buried, for instance, at least not once the epidemic is full blown. Animals scatter the bones and there's nothing left to find.


#32    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:44 AM

View Postthe L, on 02 September 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Hello dear UMers!

Recently I read on one Croatian forum interesting thread so no one gave logic conclusion so I will ask here.

We know that Pizzaro and Cortes beside guns,steel and horses bring germs which have devastating effect on native population.
Ofcourse negative effect was seen in North america. How come that Vikings didnt spread germs/disaese to North America Indians?

Were they imun? If so how come? Or natives did suffer from small pox from Vikings?

Thanks in advance.

I would say that probably some diseases were spread between the Vikings and the Native Americans.  I think that one thing that has to be considered however is that there was a much smaller population of Native Americans living in the area that the Vikings explored AND that they were spreada out over a geographically larger area.  People who were affected by the more virulent diseases were more likely to be quarantined purely because they were more isolated to begin with, whereas with the Incas and Aztecs more were located in large nearly urban areas.


#33    DieChecker

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:48 AM

Good points Orange! :tsu:

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#34    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:58 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 07 September 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Good points Orange! :tsu:

My pleasure.  Today is the one day this week my brain seems to be working at least somewhat well.  lol


#35    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postorangepeaceful79, on 07 September 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

I would say that probably some diseases were spread between the Vikings and the Native Americans.  I think that one thing that has to be considered however is that there was a much smaller population of Native Americans living in the area that the Vikings explored AND that they were spreada out over a geographically larger area.  People who were affected by the more virulent diseases were more likely to be quarantined purely because they were more isolated to begin with, whereas with the Incas and Aztecs more were located in large nearly urban areas.

That cant be explaination. In south America disease spread trough all south America when Spainyards made contact with Smaller tribes. (Notice smaller is big S). Im not virologist to know how but history said so that it was. It spread like wave which cause Europeans.
If Vikings did bring germs I would espect to see even Seminole, Apache, Navajo with imunity when Europeans re discover it again.

Edited by the L, 07 September 2012 - 01:48 PM.

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#36    praetorian-legio XIII

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

In Europe, in the 16th century wasn't bathing considered unhealthy,hence the wigs, make-up and perfumes. And wasn't it just reported that the vikings were rather well groomed.

So wouldn't that explain how the spanish, by the filth on their bodies infected the aztec and mayan races while the vikings, being cleaner had nothing to spread to native north american tribes.

I don't think its to much of a stretch to consider the vikings were healthier, cleaner and stronger than the spanish.

Edited by praetorian-legio XIII, 07 September 2012 - 04:08 PM.


#37    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:35 PM

As I remember by the time Pizzaro came in Cuzco 7 years gone before small pox pandemic was in Inca empire. Imagine, before Pizzaro and his 168 soldiers decide to find empire in where their people eat and drink from golden cups as one indian rumor said (Balboa-Native conversation), closest European to Inca empire was 3000 km. Yet small pox find way 7 years earlier then Pizzaro. Besides civil war and unhappy other native tribes which remember thier time when they were free from Inca, small pox was main reason why Inca empire fell soon. Ofcourse sudden attack on sqare and taking emperor as hostage was good starting point.
Lets say that Spainyards went back for some reason, damage was already done in heart of continent as byproduct.
So if Viking went back damage must be done already. Logic? :blink:

Edited by the L, 07 September 2012 - 04:48 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#38    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:59 PM

Microbiology is universe for itself. Microbiologists and Evelutionry biologist still have two big mysteries in that area. How they share DNA and fact that we know 1% of microorganisms what they do. 99% of microorganisms outhere- well we still dont know what they are doing.

With that said thing is that most of life on earth is microorganism. And if they share, mix, pass their DNA I realy cant understand why we learn that living organisms cant share/mix/pass their DNA. :blink:

Edited by the L, 07 September 2012 - 05:00 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#39    DieChecker

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:40 AM

Another thing I think that would have been a factor is that there were actual trade systems amoungst the Native Americans ranging from the Iriquois all the way down to the Inca. These trade routes are documented due to the presence of artifacts in various places that could have come there only by trading, sometimes over thousands of miles. It would have been these trade networks that spread disease, IMHO, and perhaps the area the vikings inhabited on that corner of what would be Canada was just not well connected to the trade network?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#40    DieChecker

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:46 AM

Another point is that the Spanish, the English, the French and the Portugese all made tens of thousands of points of contact. Where each one is a vector starting point for disease, while the Vikings probably had less then a dozen points of origin for disease. And maybe only 3 or 4, if they did not trade with the locals.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#41    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:07 AM

As I pointed out earlier. One boat bring death plaque epidemic in Italy.
7 years before Pizzaro met Inca, 3000 km distance, we have epidemic in Inca empire.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#42    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:51 PM

View Postthe L, on 08 September 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

As I pointed out earlier. One boat bring death plaque epidemic in Italy.
7 years before Pizzaro met Inca, 3000 km distance, we have epidemic in Inca empire.
Then what is your suggestion for why the native americans were spared the epidemics that took out so many of their southern brethren?  Immunity to a disease that they had not been exposed to is impossible so there has to be some physical or geographical explanation.  That is what I and others have tried to offer, but you keep shooting everything down as if you are some sort of expert on the topic - which you have already admitted you aren't.

It is easy to be a naysayer but much more difficult to offer alternatives, so I ask - what is your alternative?  Thanks.


#43    Swede

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:12 AM

View Postthe L, on 08 September 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

As I pointed out earlier. One boat bring death plaque epidemic in Italy.
7 years before Pizzaro met Inca, 3000 km distance, we have epidemic in Inca empire.

L - Timelines! Prior to Pizarro's most significant contact with the Incas (1532), there had been numerous European contacts with Central and South America. For example, it is documented that Cortes' conquest of the Aztecs in 1519 included the introduction of smallpox via an infected slave.

While the Aztec and Inca empires are geographically separated by quite some distance, one must take into account the numerous trade and travel routes utilized by the intervening populations. And this would be but one example of a potential mechanism of transmission.

.


#44    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:57 AM

The infections did not happen because of a number of factors. The Vikings did not bring many people and only a few livestock (which was a great vector for disease, smallpox was introduced to Florida by pigs), and they were probably not infected with smallpox, or any other of the diseases that caused the chain of pandemic in the Americas after 1492. The Vikings probably only brought healthy people on their expeditions, for obvious reasons and they did not bring slaves. Furthermore, the explorers came from Iceland, which was far removed from Europe and its diseases.

Unlike the Spaniards, they did not land smack in the middle of heavily populated areas and did not seek contact with the natives. There was some trade, but things quickly deteriorated into a kill on sight policy on both sides The Spaniards did not make contact with smaller tribes. The very first people encountered by the Spaniards may have numbered up to 8 million. As a comparison, when the Norse landed on Newfoundland, there were somewhere between 500 and 2000 members of the Beothuk people (the skraelings) altogether.

But in the end, it all boils down to one point: While one boat brought the plague to italy, even a hundred boats without the plague could not have done the same thing.

Also, as a sidenote, Pizzaro did not conquer the Inca with 168 men and Cortez did not conquer Mexico with 500. Pizzaro overthrew the Inca emperor with that many and the the Spanish only conquered the empire after forty years of hard fighting. The Aztec (or the Triple Alliance, as historians now refer to it) was conquered by Cortez's 500 plus over a thousand Spanish reinforcements plus tens of thousands of native soldiers.


#45    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:42 PM

View Postorangepeaceful79, on 08 September 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Then what is your suggestion for why the native americans were spared the epidemics that took out so many of their southern brethren?  Immunity to a disease that they had not been exposed to is impossible so there has to be some physical or geographical explanation.  That is what I and others have tried to offer, but you keep shooting everything down as if you are some sort of expert on the topic - which you have already admitted you aren't.

It is easy to be a naysayer but much more difficult to offer alternatives, so I ask - what is your alternative?  Thanks.
I never did say or think that Im expert. But I would rather have right question then wrong answer. I cant offer alternative idea. It isnt must thing. Why rushing? Threads are here open as long as mods close them. There is no hurry. Maybe someone offer good explaination in a year from now. Because that I will be naysayer as long as it takes.

I dont need to have explaination on all question. I do not panic. Im patient.

Edited by the L, 09 September 2012 - 12:43 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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