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Stephen Fry: "only humans are homophobic"

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#121    FurthurBB

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostLeft-Field, on 15 October 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:


You are wrong. People are born with a sense of right and wrong - or in other words, morals. This is nondependant as to ones culture.


More hatefulness spewed forth by you that you don't even recognize as such.

Tell me, who created the universe. How did everything around us come from absolutely nothing?


Again, more hateful and smugness.

Nonetheless, don't care about me all you want. Don't go grouping me into categories I don't belong, however, based upon knowing nothing about me.


Certain psychological principals apply across the board and have nothing to do with individuality.

Study psychology and you will find this to be true.

Morals have to be taught.  I have never met a child that knows right from wrong intrinsically and the fact that bad parenting can create people who have little to no morals is proof positive of that.


#122    Left-Field

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:06 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 16 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Then you have two problems there with how you're portrayed and you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself.

Or perhaps, people shouldn't assume things about others when they really don't know them. I am not to blame for the false assumptions others make about me.

View Postshadowhive, on 16 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Firstly you don't give a straght answer as to what your sexuality is. In fact you keep purposely vague. I've seen you make at least two posts where you say something allong the lines of 'you don't me or my sexuality or the people I'm friends with'. You're right, we don't. You know why? You purposely don't share the information. You coud very easily have stated it in those posts but you didn't. You kept things vague to the point that it doesn't help you.

You are correct. I don't deny that.

I have done so because I don't feel comfortable discussing my sexuality and what persons I have been sexually attracted to in an open forum. There are certain things about myself I prefer to keep private and discuss only with those I trust.

View Postshadowhive, on 16 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Second is the last part of that quote, that it's not as black and white as your posts indicate. Again, this comes down to how you state information. If it's 'not as black and white' to you, why post in a way that makes out the opposite?

It is a complicated matter to discuss in full detail, and unfortunately I do not have confidence that others will have a respectful dialogue with me on this forum when it comes to this topic.

I believe that sexual intimacy between two members of the same sex is not "appropriate" (for lack of a better word) in the eyes of God. I believe it is sinful.

That said, I do not judge those who do such things poorly. I do not think of them as "bad" people. I do not declare that there is something wrong with them and that they need to "fixed." I do not look upon homosexuals with scorn and refuse to be around them or blindly decide I will not now or ever be friends with someone who is gay, bi, or transgendered. In fact, I may even find it quite arousing myself.

That said, it does not change my thoughts that it is still a temptation not to be indulged in.

Where it becomes more cloudy for me, however, is that I fully believe some people feel 100% that they have been born into the wrong body. Again, I have had experiences with such thoughts myself at times throughout my life.

I also know that there are children as young as at least 6-years old who are either a boy that clearly desires to partake in things commonly associated with females (or vice-versa in regards to girls who feel more comfortable with things commonly associated with boys).

Hopefully my above comments help to clarify some of my thoughts.

View Postshadowhive, on 16 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

If you want to give out the right impression of what you really think, the key is to use what you really think in what you say, not be purposely vague or act the opposite opinion is your own.

When one has conflictions regarding a certain topic it is not unusual for the things they say to be taken by others in a manner that is not truly reflective of what the person deals with on an emotional and personal level regarding the topic.

As for the vagueness, again, it is because I do not feel comfortable openly discussing my sexuality or sexual preference to strangers on an open forum.

I don't see why that is considered a "negative" or unreasonable position for me to hold.

View Postshadowhive, on 16 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Why are you so surprised that the reaction to you has been like it has whne you've acted that way?

None of what I have said was cause for anyone to mock me or partake in laughter at my expense. If people want to question me I have no issue with that. To mock me, poke fun at me, and laugh at my expense is what I take issue with.

For example, your post above asked questions and made statements pertaining to my comments and I have no issue with anything you have stated. You did not partake in the mocking and laughing at me however because quite frankly, there is no reason or need for anyone to be doing so. And that is all I ask.


#123    Left-Field

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:09 PM

View PostFurthurBB, on 16 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Again, it is wishful thinking and egocentrism that leads people to believe we are somehow special in the animal kingdom just because we have been ultra successful in our niche.

Human beings are most definitely superior to animals. Why some fail to realize this is beyond me. It's not as if it is a bad thing to be aware of, nor does it mean one disrespects animals in anyway or thinks lowly of them.


#124    Left-Field

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostFurthurBB, on 16 October 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Morals have to be taught. I have never met a child that knows right from wrong intrinsically and the fact that bad parenting can create people who have little to no morals is proof positive of that.

Psychological studies have shown that children are most definitely born with a sense of right and wrong.

Your comment above that "bad parenting can create people who have little to no morals" only serves to further demonstrate what I have said (and psychological studies have shown) rather than stand in contrast to it.

Bad parenting or a bad atmospheric upbringing in general can most definitely shape one into having bad morals. Take the bad parenting (or surroundings) out of the equation however and a child (barring mental illness) will grow up on their own with a sense of knowing it is wrong to steal, kill, make fun of others, and all other sorts of things along those lines.


#125    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostLeft-Field, on 16 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Psychological studies have shown that children are most definitely born with a sense of right and wrong.
Source?


#126    shadowhive

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostLeft-Field, on 16 October 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Or perhaps, people shouldn't assume things about others when they really don't know them. I am not to blame for the false assumptions others make about me.

If those 'false assumptions' bother you so much, you can clear them up rather simply.

Quote

You are correct. I don't deny that.

I have done so because I don't feel comfortable discussing my sexuality and what persons I have been sexually attracted to in an open forum. There are certain things about myself I prefer to keep private and discuss only with those I trust.

Then I think you need to be careful with the language you've used. Your sexuality is your buisness but being both critical of others and secretve at the same time is not the way to go.

Quote

It is a complicated matter to discuss in full detail, and unfortunately I do not have confidence that others will have a respectful dialogue with me on this forum when it comes to this topic.

The best way to have a respectful dialogue is to be open and honest about this. If you can't do that, then the dialogue can't get anywhere.

Quote

I believe that sexual intimacy between two members of the same sex is not "appropriate" (for lack of a better word) in the eyes of God. I believe it is sinful.

And there you go. You say you want to have a respectful dialogue but then you use that which isn't very respectful. That's what people tend to forget.

Quote

That said, I do not judge those who do such things poorly. I do not think of them as "bad" people. I do not declare that there is something wrong with them and that they need to "fixed." I do not look upon homosexuals with scorn and refuse to be around them or blindly decide I will not now or ever be friends with someone who is gay, bi, or transgendered. In fact, I may even find it quite arousing myself.

It amases me how many people attempt to cover their tracks by saying something along those lines. Sorry, but you do judge them poorly. You've already said as much.

This is the thing people fail to understand. There's really two ways you can be. You can be pro-gay, treat gay people respectfully and as full equals. Or you can act like an ass. Call gay people names, disprepect  them, call them sinners and tell them to burn in hell. You ca't have it both ways.

You wanna respect gay people? Great. Start by stopping thinking of them as sinners and work from there. Don't try and incorporate that belief because no it's not helpful and no, it's not respectful.

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That said, it does not change my thoughts that it is still a temptation not to be indulged in.

Back to the disrespecting.

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Where it becomes more cloudy for me, however, is that I fully believe some people feel 100% that they have been born into the wrong body. Again, I have had experiences with such thoughts myself at times throughout my life.

Transgendered people aren't the same as gay people. What you say is accurate, but doesn't really have much to do with gay people.

Quote

I also know that there are children as young as at least 6-years old who are either a boy that clearly desires to partake in things commonly associated with females (or vice-versa in regards to girls who feel more comfortable with things commonly associated with boys).

People are people. Some people are more comfortable with something associated with the other gender. That doesn't make them gay or transgendered, it just means they like it. Personally it shouldn't really matter.

Quote

Hopefully my above comments help to clarify some of my thoughts.

Not really.


Quote

When one has conflictions regarding a certain topic it is not unusual for the things they say to be taken by others in a manner that is not truly reflective of what the person deals with on an emotional and personal level regarding the topic.

As for the vagueness, again, it is because I do not feel comfortable openly discussing my sexuality or sexual preference to strangers on an open forum.

I don't see why that is considered a "negative" or unreasonable position for me to hold.

You know what helps with that? If you actually say what YOU think and what YOU feel. We are not psychic. We don't know what you feel on an emotional or personal level unless you say it. All what you sad is 'god thnks this' and 'god thinks that' well newsflash: you are a thinking, feeling individual. What do you think? Ignore what god says. Ignore what the bible says. ignore what your pastor says. Think on the issue and do it yourself.

It's considered negative because what you've been spouting is negative. That shouldn't be too surprising.

Quote

None of what I have said was cause for anyone to mock me or partake in laughter at my expense. If people want to question me I have no issue with that. To mock me, poke fun at me, and laugh at my expense is what I take issue with.

For example, your post above asked questions and made statements pertaining to my comments and I have no issue with anything you have stated. You did not partake in the mocking and laughing at me however because quite frankly, there is no reason or need for anyone to be doing so. And that is all I ask.

I don't necessarily agree with what was said, but if you want them to stop questioning, you give them straight answers, something they should work with and somethng that should silence them. All you're doing is encouraging them by beng vague.

I don't see any reason to laugh at or mock you. There was a time in my life when I was mocked and laughed at and that was by bullies who have a negative attitude towards gay people solely because the bible says so. So I don't think mocking is the right thing to do, even when a person says things which are negative.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
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#127    Left-Field

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

You've attempted to put words in my mouth shadowhive and have mischaracterized me.

Simply because I believe homesexuality is a sin and not an act to be partaken in does not mean I am disrepecting homosexuals.

That would be like me stating atheists disrespect me simply by stating they are atheists because I happen to believe in God.

If you can't understand that then I'll simply let you carry on with your misconceptions about me, my beliefs, and how I regard others rather than partake in further conversation with you.


#128    Hasina

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

Another question of mine, why are sexual acts between people of the same gender wrong?

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#129    shadowhive

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostLeft-Field, on 16 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

You've attempted to put words in my mouth shadowhive and have mischaracterized me.

Simply because I believe homesexuality is a sin and not an act to be partaken in does not mean I am disrepecting homosexuals.

I've not put words in your mouth.

The belief that homosexuality is a sin IS disrespecting homosexuals. You hold that belef, by your own admission, therefore the disrespect is there. Like it or not.

Quote

That would be like me stating atheists disrespect me simply by stating they are atheists because I happen to believe in God.

If you can't understand that then I'll simply let you carry on with your misconceptions about me, my beliefs, and how I regard others rather than partake in further conversation with you.

I'm a bisexual. I've been called mny names. I've been abused, physically, mentally and verbally. Guess what those people believed? I'll give you a hint, it's the belief you hold. That belief enabled them to do those things. You know what makes it worse? It enables fully grown adults to do the same and worse. If you are serious about respecting homosexuals, throw out the belief that is causing them so much harm, don't try to cling to it and act high and mighty.

From the looks of it, you're a conflicted person. I can see that from the way that you flip and flop. Make up your mind and think for yourself.

Edited by shadowhive, 16 October 2012 - 05:23 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#130    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:08 PM

I'll never understand why some people still cling to the idea of sexual identity being only straight, bi or gay. Those aren't the only options and the need to categorize does more harm than good when it comes to things like sexuality and race.

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#131    FurthurBB

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:22 PM

View PostLeft-Field, on 16 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Psychological studies have shown that children are most definitely born with a sense of right and wrong.

Your comment above that "bad parenting can create people who have little to no morals" only serves to further demonstrate what I have said (and psychological studies have shown) rather than stand in contrast to it.

Bad parenting or a bad atmospheric upbringing in general can most definitely shape one into having bad morals. Take the bad parenting (or surroundings) out of the equation however and a child (barring mental illness) will grow up on their own with a sense of knowing it is wrong to steal, kill, make fun of others, and all other sorts of things along those lines.


Okay, then point me to some sources because my observations tell me this is wrong.  Oh and the animal thing, wishful thinking and egocentrism no matter how many times you say it.

Edited by FurthurBB, 16 October 2012 - 08:23 PM.


#132    Hasina

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 16 October 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I'll never understand why some people still cling to the idea of sexual identity being only straight, bi or gay. Those aren't the only options and the need to categorize does more harm than good when it comes to things like sexuality and race.
I'm an attractisexual, I'm only attracted to attractive people. ;D

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#133    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:37 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 16 October 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I'll never understand why some people still cling to the idea of sexual identity being only straight, bi or gay. Those aren't the only options and the need to categorize does more harm than good when it comes to things like sexuality and race.

What other options are there?    You said options.. I didnt know sexuality was an option...  Apart from  gay, straight and bi  ..what else is there?

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#134    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 October 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

What other options are there? You said options.. I didnt know sexuality was an option...  Apart from  gay, straight and bi  ..what else is there?

I meant that sexuality is just as diverse as everything else, but in the western world we like to label it as gay, straight or bi. There are men who may be slightly attracted to men, or women who aren't attracted to anyone. Human sexuality is a spectrum, not just a label. I should have been more clear and not used the word 'option'.
Gender roles are different than sexuality, but there are cultures that recognize third, fourth and even fifth genders,

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#135    Left-Field

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostFurthurBB, on 16 October 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Okay, then point me to some sources because my observations tell me this is wrong.

"Humans do have a rudimentary moral sense from the very start of life. With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of moral thought, moral judgement, and moral feeling even in the first year of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone."

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The Moral Life Of Babies

Psychologists Say Babies Know Right From Wrong Even At Six Months

The Babies Brain: Children Born Knowing Right From Wrong?

Children Are Born To Know Right From Wrong New Research Shows

Sense Of Fairness, Altruism Observed In Infants As Young As 15 Months Old

View PostFurthurBB, on 16 October 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Oh and the animal thing, wishful thinking and egocentrism no matter how many times you say it.

It is a fact that the human mind is far superior to that of any animal. This is not a matter of opinion. And there is no wishful thinking or egocentrism involved in the matter.

If you feel your mind isn't superior to and far more capable of things than even the smartest of animals then you must be lacking a great deal of intelligence and/or knowledge about such things.





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