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Last Supper Menu: Stew, Lamb, Wine...More


Still Waters

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A bean stew, lamb, olives, bitter herbs, a fish sauce, unleavened bread, dates and aromatized wine likely were on the menu at the Last Supper, says recent research into Palestinian cuisine during Jesus's time.

The food wasn't eaten during a formal seated gathering at a rectangular table, as shown in many religious art paintings, but with Jesus and his apostles reclining on floor cushions, as the Romans did at that time.

http://news.discover...-more150402.htm

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Jesus valued poverty, he was not a rock star with all that fancy Roman fish sauce.

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But was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist christians claim. Because, you know, jesus would never drink alcohol.

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A bean stew, lamb, olives, bitter herbs, a fish sauce, unleavened bread, dates and aromatized wine likely were on the menu at the Last Supper, says recent research into Palestinian cuisine during Jesus's time.

The food wasn't eaten during a formal seated gathering at a rectangular table, as shown in many religious art paintings, but with Jesus and his apostles reclining on floor cushions, as the Romans did at that time.

http://news.discover...-more150402.htm

Sounds like a quality med dinner to me. I guess the fish sauce was something that you dipped your bread into, the bitter herbs to cleanse your palette?

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Jesus valued poverty, he was not a rock star with all that fancy Roman fish sauce.

It was a holiday, I am sure he would make exceptions for holidays.

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But was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist christians claim. Because, you know, jesus would never drink alcohol.

I reckon it was wine because the fermentation killed off parasites and was safer than water.

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Didn't everyone drink wine back then, even children? I would imagine it would have been considered less taboo back then.

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Didn't everyone drink wine back then, even children? I would imagine it would have been considered less taboo back then.

What?!? Are you suggesting that a fringe denomination of fundamentalist Protestants are willfully misrepresenting the blessed Scriptures in order to push their own prudish, sanctimonious, and anachronistic agenda? Poppycock! The utter lot of it!

Next you'll be telling me that the Rapture's totally made up (and horribly named), the earth wasn't made in just over a business week, and that homosexuality didn't warrant God making an object lesson out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

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What?!? Are you suggesting that a fringe denomination of fundamentalist Protestants are willfully misrepresenting the blessed Scriptures in order to push their own prudish, sanctimonious, and anachronistic agenda? Poppycock! The utter lot of it!

Next you'll be telling me that the Rapture's totally made up (and horribly named), the earth wasn't made in just over a business week, and that homosexuality didn't warrant God making an object lesson out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I might go so far as to suggest that the entire belief system isn't based on totalitarianism, ignorance, and oppression. If you're very naughty I may even reveal that knowledge and critical thinking aren't punishable sins. ;)

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I might go so far as to suggest that the entire belief system isn't based on totalitarianism, ignorance, and oppression. If you're very naughty I may even reveal that knowledge and critical thinking aren't punishable sins. ;)

Hey, Galileo got what was coming to him.

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A bean stew, lamb, olives, bitter herbs, a fish sauce, unleavened bread, dates and aromatized wine likely were on the menu at the Last Supper, says recent research into Palestinian cuisine during Jesus's time.

The food wasn't eaten during a formal seated gathering at a rectangular table, as shown in many religious art paintings, but with Jesus and his apostles reclining on floor cushions, as the Romans did at that time.

http://news.discover...-more150402.htm

Sounds like a tasty dinner. I'd eat that (except for the fish sauce, depends on exactly what it was, I may or may not enjoy that part, lol).

But was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist christians claim. Because, you know, jesus would never drink alcohol.

Is there any purpose in this comment except to stir debate? I ask because of the section we're in (Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs). I can't see any purpose in this comment except to drag fundamentalist Christians through the mud. If you had another purpose in mind, perhaps you can elaborate :)
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"But was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist christians claim. Because, you know, jesus would never drink alcohol."

Is there any purpose in this comment except to stir debate? I ask because of the section we're in (Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs). I can't see any purpose in this comment except to drag fundamentalist Christians through the mud. If you had another purpose in mind, perhaps you can elaborate :)

You know, there may actually be some merit to this discussion. For all of the Abrahamic religions to be drawing from a similar pool of sources, no one can really agree on an alcohol policy. Jews have ritualized wine, Muslims have outlawed it, and Christians are constantly in two minds about it.

The guy who founded the Welch's company and invented the methods to pasteurize grape juice was actually a Methodist minister. He came up with the process specifically to provide materials for use in the Lord's Supper. Methodists have always had an undercurrent of social progressivism going on and realized the problem that using fermented wine posed for recurrent alcoholism as far back as the 1860's.

The Methodist Discipline (sort of the Church's play book and Boy Scout Manual) doesn't outright forbid the consumption of alcohol, however, it strongly urges temperance and moderation, should the choice be made. With that in mind, it concluded in its first edition that to use fermented wines in what is a mandatory part of the Christian religion would be incredibly hypocritical. Unfermented grape juice has been used ever since.

It's kind of ironic that there are very literalist Christian groups (many of whom are Pentecostal offshoots of Methodism) who contort themselves in ways to avoid the historically accurate presence of wine in the Gospel narratives and earliest rituals, when the grape juice they're defending was invented as a conscious departure from biblical literalism, for the sake of accommodating all parishioners seeking Communion.

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I reckon it was wine because the fermentation killed off parasites and was safer than water.

That's not what Brother Whooseewhatsit told us at Central Baptist Church in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, when I was in the 8th grade. And he should know, he talked to jesus on a daily basis - sometimes more than once.

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Is there any purpose in this comment except to stir debate? I ask because of the section we're in (Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs). I can't see any purpose in this comment except to drag fundamentalist Christians through the mud. If you had another purpose in mind, perhaps you can elaborate :)

How is asking a question that has been asked by tens of thousands of children in Sunday school class dragging fundamentalist christians through the mud?

Shouldn't a religion based around the worship of an all-powerful, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity be able to withstand the scrutiny of someone asking about beverage choices.

Edited by Rafterman
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Is there any purpose in this comment except to stir debate? I ask because of the section we're in (Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs). I can't see any purpose in this comment except to drag fundamentalist Christians through the mud. If you had another purpose in mind, perhaps you can elaborate :)

Sadly one cannot discuss religious issues, especially Christianity or Jesus Himself without eliciting the usually smarmy nonsense. But then Jesus did say, "They hated me without cause."

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You know, there may actually be some merit to this discussion. For all of the Abrahamic religions to be drawing from a similar pool of sources, no one can really agree on an alcohol policy. Jews have ritualized wine, Muslims have outlawed it, and Christians are constantly in two minds about it.

The guy who founded the Welch's company and invented the methods to pasteurize grape juice was actually a Methodist minister. He came up with the process specifically to provide materials for use in the Lord's Supper. Methodists have always had an undercurrent of social progressivism going on and realized the problem that using fermented wine posed for recurrent alcoholism as far back as the 1860's.

The Methodist Discipline (sort of the Church's play book and Boy Scout Manual) doesn't outright forbid the consumption of alcohol, however, it strongly urges temperance and moderation, should the choice be made. With that in mind, it concluded in its first edition that to use fermented wines in what is a mandatory part of the Christian religion would be incredibly hypocritical. Unfermented grape juice has been used ever since.

It's kind of ironic that there are very literalist Christian groups (many of whom are Pentecostal offshoots of Methodism) who contort themselves in ways to avoid the historically accurate presence of wine in the Gospel narratives and earliest rituals, when the grape juice they're defending was invented as a conscious departure from biblical literalism, for the sake of accommodating all parishioners seeking Communion.

My only real response to this is to invoke the wedding that Jesus turned water into wine. If it was non-alcoholic, then surely the host of the wedding erred when he described the flavour, noting that most of the time the best wine is used first, so that those who drink the cheaper wine later in the night are too drunk to care that the quality is dipping, but when Jesus brings out his special brew, the best wine was served last, letting people get drunk to their hearts content.

In saying that, the Bible does suggest temperance when it comes to imbibing alcohol. I don't think there's anything wrong with a beer (or ten) provided it's not something one does every week or every day or some such. Rare occasions call for a hangover the next day.

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How is asking a question that has been asked by tens of thousands of children in Sunday school class dragging fundamentalist christians through the mud?

Shouldn't a religion based around the worship of an all-powerful, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity be able to withstand the scrutiny of someone asking about beverage choices.

I've never been to Sunday School, neither as a child or taught it. So forgive me if I've never heard of Welch's Grape Juice until you mentioned it just now. So I'm not sure how a kid would bother asking their teachers about Welch's Grape Juice compared to wine. But even assuming that they did ask the question, I still fail to see how (in the context you used) the question was intended to do anything but make a mockery of fundamentalist Christians.
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I've never been to Sunday School, neither as a child or taught it. So forgive me if I've never heard of Welch's Grape Juice until you mentioned it just now. So I'm not sure how a kid would bother asking their teachers about Welch's Grape Juice compared to wine. But even assuming that they did ask the question, I still fail to see how (in the context you used) the question was intended to do anything but make a mockery of fundamentalist Christians.

Frankly I don't have to make a mockery of fundamentalist christians. They do a pretty darn good job of that themselves - case in point, Indiana.

As for Welch's Grape Juice, it's what I drank for the lord's supper (i.e. communion) for about 20 years because jesus did not drink alcohol see and when the bible talks about wine, they actually mean grape juice. You will find this at not only fundamentalist churches, but pretty much any non-catholic or non-episcopal church in the US.

If you think I'm kidding or lying just to ruffle feathers - which you seem to imply quite often - all you have to do is google to find page after page of apologetic nonsense about jesus, wine, and alcohol.

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To my pious fellow members.

Rafterman and I can hardly be accused of playing in partnership. However, do you happen to have chapter and verse for where the Bible says that Jesus used wine and not an unspecified "fruit of the vine" for the original Lord's Supper?

I can't seem to find it. Yes, wine is right for the occasion, era and place, but then again, so is vinegar (also a fruit of the vine). Vinegar is well-attested in the era and place for somebody who anticipates that he might need to remain sharp throughout the night (for example, a soldier on duty or a rabbi who foresees a long night of interviews with important people).

At the crucifixion, Jesus declined a drugged vinegary product (possibly wine partially turned), according to Mark and Matthew, but Jesus did drink vinegar shortly before death, according to John.

So, at the original Lord's Supper,

Was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist Christians claim?

sounds like a fair question, and pertinent to the announced topic. Damned if I know the answer.

Edited by eight bits
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To my pious fellow members.

Rafterman and I can hardly be accused of playing in partnership. However, do you happen to have chapter and verse for where the Bible says that Jesus used wine and not an unspecified "fruit of the vine" for the original Lord's Supper?

I can't seem to find it. Yes, wine is right for the occasion, era and place, but then again, so is vinegar (also a fruit of the vine). Vinegar is well-attested in the era and place for somebody who anticipates that he might need to remain sharp throughout the night (for example, a soldier on duty or a rabbi who foresees a long night of interviews with important people).

At the crucifixion, Jesus declined a drugged vinegary product (possibly wine partially turned), according to Mark and Matthew, but Jesus did drink vinegar shortly before death, according to John.

So, at the original Lord's Supper,

Was it real wine or "kind of like Welch's Grape Juice" as I've heard many fundamentalist Christians claim?

sounds like a fair question, and pertinent to the announced topic. Damned if I know the answer.

All the Gospels except John mention some details of the Last Supper, especially that part which is used in the institution of the Eucharist where Jesus likens the bread to his body and the "fruit of the vine" to his blood.

It is speculation on my part, but I would suggest Jesus would not liken the shedding of his blood for all Mankind to a bitter vinegar, but would be more likely to have used a wine - perhaps even sweetened - for the comparison. This would better agree with the supposition he went willingly to his sacrifice and not in bitterness for what he was asked to do.

Edited by Leonardo
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Leo

That's fine. As I said, I don't know which it was, and I haven't argued for one or the other. You have an opinion about which one, but I don't, so you and I don't starkly disagree.

My point in posting was that the question is a reasoanble one.

A larger point is that different people read a book. The book says folks drank from a cup of something that one of them referred to as "fruit of the vine." Some people think that the reference is about "wine," while as some posters have correctly pointed out, other readers very insistently don't - including some who think Jesus was a willing victim. Since as a matter of fact there is at least one obvious alternative to wine, there is something to ask about and discuss in a thread about the menu that night.

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Leo

That's fine. As I said, I don't know which it was, and I haven't argued for one or the other. You have an opinion about which one, but I don't, so you and I don't starkly disagree.

My point in posting was that the question is a reasoanble one.

A larger point is that different people read a book. The book says folks drank from a cup of something that one of them referred to as "fruit of the vine." Some people think that the reference is about "wine," while as some posters have correctly pointed out, other readers very insistently don't - including some who think Jesus was a willing victim. Since as a matter of fact there is at least one obvious alternative to wine, there is something to ask about and discuss in a thread about the menu that night.

One thing I did find a bit thought-provoking in the texts was that the 3 Gospels which mention details of the Last Supper (Mark, Matthew and Luke) also have Jesus say variations on "I will not drink the fruit of the vine until my Father's Kingdom has come" and refusing to drink at the Supper. All 3 of these Gospels also have Jesus refusing the vinegar at his execution.

Now, this may be simply that both wine and vinegar are both "fruits of the vine" and Jesus/the writer is aware of this so avoids the obvious mistake. However, because it is so specifically mentioned it could indicate the drink at the Last Supper was, in fact, vinegar.

And I know you weren't proffering an answer to the question of which it was, eb. I just thought it quite an interesting avenue of exploration.

Edited by Leonardo
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Leo

That's fine. As I said, I don't know which it was, and I haven't argued for one or the other. You have an opinion about which one, but I don't, so you and I don't starkly disagree.

My point in posting was that the question is a reasoanble one.

A larger point is that different people read a book. The book says folks drank from a cup of something that one of them referred to as "fruit of the vine." Some people think that the reference is about "wine," while as some posters have correctly pointed out, other readers very insistently don't - including some who think Jesus was a willing victim. Since as a matter of fact there is at least one obvious alternative to wine, there is something to ask about and discuss in a thread about the menu that night.

This is so funny, because my Dad recently in an attempt to get me to add wine to my diet, said "you know Jesus drank wine, " to which I said "I thought he made wine it doesn't say he drank it too." Or does it?

So it is a good question Paul, kudos to you for asking!

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Frankly I don't have to make a mockery of fundamentalist christians. They do a pretty darn good job of that themselves - case in point, Indiana.

As for Welch's Grape Juice, it's what I drank for the lord's supper (i.e. communion) for about 20 years because jesus did not drink alcohol see and when the bible talks about wine, they actually mean grape juice. You will find this at not only fundamentalist churches, but pretty much any non-catholic or non-episcopal church in the US.

Every church I've ever been in (with two exceptions, when I visited a couple of Anglican churches) uses Ribena or an Apple-Blackcurrant blend if they're being cheaper. That's not because of any particular theology about alcohol, just a note that it's cheaper and tastier on Sunday morning. I've been to two Anglican churches that used real wine, but they seem to be pretty rare too.

If you think I'm kidding or lying just to ruffle feathers - which you seem to imply quite often - all you have to do is google to find page after page of apologetic nonsense about jesus, wine, and alcohol.

I never said you were kidding or lying, I fully accept every word you wrote. But I do think you were trying to ruffle feathers nonetheless. Edited by Paranoid Android
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Sheri

For raising this excellent question, all credit goes to Rafterman.

Different churches will do different things around the world, or do similar things for different reasons. However, the concentration of Protestant churches, particularly in the American South, who avoid wine for religious reasons, is simply a fact of comparative religion, which Rafterman righty observes. (This practice should not be confused with hospitable churches who offer grape juice as an alternative to watered wine for those who might have good reson to avoid alcohol, or who offer gluten-free substitutes for bread to those who have an allergy.)

These intentionally "dry" churches rely on their Bibles, wherein Jesus is never depicted drinking wine. It is a point of their Protestant faith that Jesus alone, not his companions before their redemption by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, is the model of virtuous living for Christians. Jesus does dine with sinners, but he doesn't join them in their sinning.

It is funny to see WWJD (What would Jesus do?) applied as an argument to take up wine drinking :). Thank you for sharing that. But supplying the wine at Cana in Galilee can be interpreted as Jesus obeying, perhaps for the final time, God's commandment to honor his mother by acceding to her wish, even contrary to his divine mission profile. He is obviously reluctant to do it, and wouldn't have done it except that she insisted. He isn't shown drinking.

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