84 replies to this topic

[Zaphod222]

Liquid Gardens, on 31 January 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I think it more depends on your definition of "Islam", which seems to be excessively narrow and does not seem to acknowledge the breadth of belief under that umbrella.

The definition of "islam" is pretty straighforward, and contained in the Shahada. I have not been saying anything special or unusual, which you would know if you actually read up on islamic doctrine.

To give you a head-start, here is a quote that addresses your naive ignorance about the concept of "peace" directly:

"Both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms, these mean different things to each of them. The word peace, for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam -- or House of Islam -- to the entire world. This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought. Only when the entire world is a Dar al-Islam will it be a Dar a-Salam, or House of Peace." (Bassam Tibi)

[Liquid Gardens]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

The definition of "islam" is pretty straighforward, and contained in the Shahada.

Really?  The Shahada says that "Islam is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an"?

Quote

To give you a head-start, here is a quote that addresses your naive ignorance about the concept of "peace" directly:

"Both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms, these mean different things to each of them. The word peace, for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam -- or House of Islam -- to the entire world. This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought. Only when the entire world is a Dar al-Islam will it be a Dar a-Salam, or House of Peace." (Bassam Tibi)

Here's what you originally said:  "And if you fall for the simplistic talking point that islam wants "peace", you only show that you have not studied the issue. I would recommend to inform yourself about the definition of "peace" within islamic dogma. Hint: It is not what you and I understand by "peace"."  So you obviously meant by 'islam' what is said in the Shahada since its definition is pretty straightforward, Captain Equivocation?  Apparently religious creeds can 'want' things like peace now?

Regardless, you are using 'peace' in this sentence without defining it, for less myopic definitions of 'islam' and 'peace' than you appear to be using, Islam wants peace, as a sizable number of Muslims want 'peace' as we mean it here in the western world.  I'm assuming that you are not defining 'Islam' by the worst members of it, criticizing fundamentalists is going after pretty low hanging fruit.  We may partially agree in that 'islam wants peace' is too simplistic of a statement, it is difficult on the converse to my position to ignore the violence either; even though a lot of that religious violence is overlaid with what is probably better termed political violence, to be consistent it can't be ignored either.

[Zaphod222]

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Really?  The Shahada says that "Islam is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an"?

The Shahada declares that Allah is god and Mohammed is is prophet. All the problems flow from there.

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Regardless, you are using 'peace' in this sentence without defining it, for less myopic definitions of 'islam' and 'peace' than you appear to be using, Islam wants peace, as a sizable number of Muslims want 'peace' as we mean it here in the western world.

You can endlessly pontificate about the "number of muslims" that you image want this or that, but that does not change the fact that islamic doctrine defines "peace" differently from you and I.
That there are plenty of nominal muslims who do not know or care about their religion is a given.

Btw, it is pretty funny that we are regularly lectured about the peaceful nature of islam by well-meaning, but naive non-muslims. Now, if we heard a clear statement that islam wants "peace" the way the Western cultures define it, that would be something. But don´t hold your breath for that.

[Verloc]

Etu Malku, on 27 January 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Obviously Luciferianism is the only intelligent and least harmful religion!
Of course I am biased

I'm curious, you follow a Satanic religion?
So you believe in God but choose to serve the Devil?
Which is just another 'being' anthropomorphized  by humans, to explain the "evil" in man and the world?

[Liquid Gardens]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The Shahada declares that Allah is god and Mohammed is is prophet. All the problems flow from there.

Ah, so we're safely into opinion territory then; duly noted and disregarded.

Quote

You can endlessly pontificate about the "number of muslims" that you image want this or that, but that does not change the fact that islamic doctrine defines "peace" differently from you and I.
That there are plenty of nominal muslims who do not know or care about their religion is a given.

I don't have to imagine squat; do you really need to be hand-held through a google search?  You seem to have this illusion that it is valid for you to just self-select one particular definition of words and act like it's the only one.  Islam is not just one doctrine, it includes what its practitioners believe, why that needs to be explained to you eludes me.  I've read parts of the Qur'an and I see plenty that I see perfectly consistent and supporting of the western concept of 'peace'.  You're playing word games.

Quote

Btw, it is pretty funny that we are regularly lectured about the peaceful nature of islam by well-meaning, but naive non-muslims. Now, if we heard a clear statement that islam wants "peace" the way the Western cultures define it, that would be something. But don´t hold your breath for that.

As opposed to being lectured about how non-peaceful it is by naive non-muslims such as yourself?  "Islam" cannot give a clear statement, anymore than 'Christianity' can, it encompasses the beliefs of billions of people, these are not monolithic ideas or groups.  Apparently for you though, "Islam" only includes the Muslims who believe what are convenient for your 'argument'.  Are you really claiming that Islam and Muslims have no concept at all of 'peace' as Western cultures define it?

[Beckys_Mom]

Verloc, on 01 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm curious, you follow a Satanic religion?
So you believe in God but choose to serve the Devil?

Can you tell me, what makes you think that Lucifer is in fact the devil? Before the King James bible existed, what did people ref to Lucifer as ?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 February 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[Etu Malku]

Verloc, on 01 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm curious, you follow a Satanic religion?
So you believe in God but choose to serve the Devil?
Which is just another 'being' anthropomorphized  by humans, to explain the "evil" in man and the world?

If I were a Satanist then I would be following a Satanic religion, but I'm a Luciferian.
No, lol, I do not believe in the Abrahamic god, or any god for that matter.

Non-Theistic Luciferians as myself, are not concerned about Abrahamic symbolism, they understand that archetypal images such as demons and angels or any form of god are merely symbols towards stirring the Psyche in order to help momentarily change the current objective universe.

We do not worship Satan nor even believe in Satan. The Adversary is a trans-cultural archetype which existed long before Christianity began in the form of Samael, Ahriman and the feminine aspect being Lilith among others.

[Zaphod222]

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Ah, so we're safely into opinion territory then; duly noted and disregarded.

No. Islam is stuck with the dogma of the Koran being the literal word of god, and Mohammed the perfect man. THAT is where all the problems flow from.
Christianity had the age of the enlightenment; no such thing happened in islam.
Sorry, I assumed you knew that.

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

I don't have to imagine squat; do you really need to be hand-held through a google search?  You seem to have this illusion that it is valid for you to just self-select one particular definition of words and act like it's the only one.  Islam is not just one doctrine, it includes what its practitioners believe, why that needs to be explained to you eludes me.  I've read parts of the Qur'an and I see plenty that I see perfectly consistent and supporting of the western concept of 'peace'.  You're playing word games.

Unlike what you imagine, islam is not this sort of smorgasbord, where you are free to pick and choose. The dogma of the Koran being literal and Mohammed the perfect mean means that those who study it inevitably become radicalized. And it being a personal religion, there is no such thing as a Vatican to moderate it.
As for the Koran reading, I recommend you read all of it PLUS inform yourself of the chronological order. That will give you a different picture.

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

As opposed to being lectured about how non-peaceful it is by naive non-muslims such as yourself?  "Islam" cannot give a clear statement, anymore than 'Christianity' can, it encompasses the beliefs of billions of people, these are not monolithic ideas or groups.  Apparently for you though, "Islam" only includes the Muslims who believe what are convenient for your 'argument'.  Are you really claiming that Islam and Muslims have no concept at all of 'peace' as Western cultures define it?

Actually, I quoted Bassam Tibi, who, unlike you, speaks with authority on the subject. SInce you know how to google, do look him up.

[Mr Walker]

Etu Malku, on 01 February 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

You're a lucky man Walker!
My wife teaches a course on Tantric sex and can induce multiple orgasms in a male . . . god I love her!

Ah tantric sex. Takes me back to my hippy days.
About the only sort i get these days, but still the best. lol

[Etu Malku]

Mr Walker, on 02 February 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Ah tantric sex. Takes me back to my hippy days.
About the only sort i get these days, but still the best. lol

I admit, when I first came here and encountered you, I was certain you were to be an adversary in religious philosophy and my beliefs.

I was wrong.