226 replies to this topic

[questionmark]

Corp, on 26 September 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Maybe we should just go back to the bartar system. Now who has change for a goat?

You might have intended it as a joke, but certainly growing your own food is the best insurance against hyperinflation or economic collapse. Much better than any Kruger Rands you can buy.

[Br Cornelius]

questionmark, on 26 September 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

You might have intended it as a joke, but certainly growing your own food is the best insurance against hyperinflation or economic collapse. Much better than any Kruger Rands you can buy.

Can I have ketchup with my Kruger Rands

Br Cornelius

[ninjadude]

Taylor Reints, on 26 September 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

I know it has not been for a while now. However, look at the inflation of regular items you buy at the grocery store. By the way, I'm not nostalgic.

What inflation. The inflation rate for the last several years is very low. Food prices have gone up and down based on supply/demand as they should. Did you think that the devastation caused by climate change bringing a huge drought to the midwest that killed dry land corn was not going to have an effect on gas and a million other foodstuffs?

Edited by ninjadude, 27 September 2012 - 12:45 AM.

[acidhead]

Br Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

To illustrate the point that there is nothing magical about Gold and that a Gold based economy shares almost all of the flaws of Fiat currency;



http://userpage.fu-b...glish/chap4.htm

I see the flaws in the Fed system but don't want a barely better solution to replace it.

This site offers a wealth of suggestion for alternatives to the Fed vs Gold false dichotomy.



Br Cornelius

from your link:

Quote

The German word for money, which is "Geld,"
links it rather precisely to its origin which was gold. Gold,
a fairly useless metal except for jewelry and ornaments,
became the preferred exchange medium around 700
B.C. in the Roman Empire.

Reeeeeallllllly?

Nothing else on the planet other than gold protects an individuals self worth better.  The money supply around the world is overly inflated.  Interest payments were nothing more than banking scams to cover losses..... read some monetary history.   Gold is under valued as are other metals but gold is special.  There is a reason it's the most sought at metal on the market in abundance with due regard to other precious metals. Our current global money is based on the Petrol Dollar(the US$)  It's based upon a product that is engineered to vanish.  It's almost magical how they managed to pull that one off.  One day all the fossil fuels will be gone from earth but I'll guaran ****in tee you that Gold will still exist.  And in abundance.  It's an unique metal unlike all the rest.

Anybody who tries to CON vince you other wise is nuts.

Edited by acidhead, 27 September 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[Br Cornelius]

Sentiment is the only thing that gives Gold value. It doesn't make it a good money system in the modern world.

Why can't anyone seem to understand that we placed the value in Gold - no one else.
People seem to think that a return to old certainties will solve all our problems, but if it doesn't actually work its not going to help. How do you account for growth in real wealth in a fixed and invariant money supply ? If you allow for growth then you have circumvented the main claimed benefit of Gold which is its invariant value. Then if you have a fractional Gold standard (as you would have to have) who controls the fractional leverage - and what is to stop Bankers from manipulating that rate to increase the money supply - as has happened historically. Also - are you advocating a Global reserve currency of fixed value - or will each country have their own currency - who will police the system??
Since Gold cannot be used as an actual currency on a day to day basis (not enough) its just replacing one form of paper with another - the only difference is your perceived confidence in the value of that paper.

PS-What we have now is what capitalism always gravitates to. I don't actually believe in the utopia of perfect capitalism and I base this belief on the fact that it has never existed. I use the failure of theocracy throughout history as the basis of my extrapolation. Utopian dreams are just that - DREAMS. I prefer to live reality.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 27 September 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Br Cornelius]

I suspect that when the Dollar does eventually implode there will be an attempt to go back to a Gold standard.
However it will inevitably fail as it has done in the past - and it will represent a huge missed opportunity to re-frame the meaning and purpose of Money to fit the needs of modern society.

Maybe it will take a failed attempt to re-invent the square wheel before we will look to better alternatives.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

acidhead, on 27 September 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

from your link:



Reeeeeallllllly?

Nothing else on the planet other than gold protects an individuals self worth better.  The money supply around the world is overly inflated.  Interest payments were nothing more than banking scams to cover losses..... read some monetary history.   Gold is under valued as are other metals but gold is special.  There is a reason it's the most sought at metal on the market in abundance with due regard to other precious metals. Our current global money is based on the Petrol Dollar(the US$)  It's based upon a product that is engineered to vanish.  It's almost magical how they managed to pull that one off.  One day all the fossil fuels will be gone from earth but I'll guaran ****in tee you that Gold will still exist.  And in abundance.  It's an unique metal unlike all the rest.

Anybody who tries to CON vince you other wise is nuts.

Acid, you would not work, by chance, for Doyon?

[Jeremiah65]

Ok...I am going to put my ignorance on my sleeve here so everyone can see it.

Br Cornelius is correct on the line of thought...gold is only valuable because we assign it value.  It, for all practical purposes (outside of electronics), is just a pretty soft metal...In theory, you could set the monetary standard to anything that is desirable but that still makes no sense to me.

Why not set the monetary standard to something that actually is valuable and needed...like wheat or grain...beef, pork, chicken, etc.  Things that could actually measure the value of a good days work.  I recall reading somewhere that once upon a time, the value of wages was set based upon the ability to eat and be sheltered (it was years ago and no I do not have a source).  One days work = XX days of food and shelter.  Somehow, through the ages, that has spiraled completely out of control....probably because of just flat out greed.

Again, this is a weak place for me.  I don't have a firm grasp on economics from a monetary perspective and I have never understood why we lust for gold, diamonds and other worthless shiny things.  Well I take that back, at least diamonds can be used as a tool for cutting...gold, silver and platinum, to me, are not worth the value we attach to them...

Ok...ignorance exposed....you can laugh now.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 27 September 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[FurthurBB]

Jeremiah65, on 27 September 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Ok...I am going to put my ignorance on my sleeve here so everyone can see it.

Br Cornelius is correct on the line of thought...gold is only valuable because we assign it value.  It, for all practical purposes (outside of electronics), is just a pretty soft metal...In theory, you could set the monetary standard to anything that is desirable but that still makes no sense to me.

Why not set the monetary standard to something that actually is valuable and needed...like wheat or grain...beef, pork, chicken, etc.  Things that could actually measure the value of a good days work.  I recall reading somewhere that once upon a time, the value of wages was set based upon the ability to eat and be sheltered (it was years ago and no I do not have a source).  One days work = XX days of food and shelter.  Somehow, through the ages, that has spiraled completely out of control....probably because of just flat out greed.

Again, this is a weak place for me.  I don't have a firm grasp on economics from a monetary perspective and I have never understood why we lust for gold, diamonds and other worthless shiny things.  Well I take that back, at least diamonds can be used as a tool for cutting...gold, silver and platinum, to me, are not worth the value we attach to them...

Ok...ignorance exposed....you can laugh now.

Even that can be corrupted though. Think about miners in the US that were actually working for basically nothing, had to pay exorbitant fees for lodging and equipment.  They had some food to eat and a roof over their heads, but they couldn't quit or they would owe money to the company they were working for.  It was hardly better than slave labor.

[acidhead]

questionmark, on 27 September 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Acid, you would not work, by chance, for Doyon?

as much as I can

[Yamato]

ninjadude, on 27 September 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

What inflation.

What inflation?



Inflated gold prices is inflation, that's another way of explaining some of your comments above and nobody is contesting that.   The price of gold was stable for 100 years when the dollar was pegged to it.   Your thinking causes gold to go to the moon and then you don't even want it? Put some savings into competing currencies or natural gas if you want to protect yourself.   For instance, the New Zealand dollar is better than the US dollar.   The Canadian dollar is better than the US dollar too.   The jury is in ninjadude, and the dollar can't compete with gold on the world market.   And it never will with heroes like Helicopter Ben at the switch printing digital money not worth the paper it's not printed on.  

Food prices going up and down due to demand is just fine.  (and that applies to everything else besides food too, don't forget).  

But the stability of food prices is important.  Wild swings higher take a physical toll on people and will mean the difference between life and death to some.  



Populations can't withstand this kind of price instability.   Food supply in the future is going to be a huge problem; just Google it and read some articles.  Add endless money printing and it means that even if massive initiatives like a 'Manhattan Project' of food supply is put into action, and even if the global demand for food is met in the coming years, we're still devaluing our money.  What do you think this does to the poor?  It's prohibitively expensive already to eat healthily in the US (I don't even want to think about the rest of the world because I feel guilty).  The bottom of our society can eat beef burritos at Taco Bell and double cheeseburgers and french fries at McDonalds or nasty little meat pizzas from the grocery store.  Food-price bang for the buck champions like these are the protein that the poor run on to mow our lawns, paint our houses, clear our brush, pick our onions, and build our homes.  Like it's difficult to see why we have an obesity epidemic!    

Do you buy groceries?   I notice even when food prices appear to remain the same, the serving sizes we get in the packages we're buying have gone down, being filled with air, being hollowed out with dome shaped bottoms, dropping a half gallon of ice cream down to 1.75 quarts and so on.  Some of the increase is hidden from us by the food companies and we don't even know it.   Government's tricks with the CPI adds mirrors to the smoke.

How can people seriously sit back and not care about health care prices?   This has a massive moral component to it; that's what motivates me to make sure that gold, health care, insurance, education, energy and food prices (everything that government has its grubby nubbies into) stay stable next to the value of our money.

Edited by Yamato, 28 September 2012 - 06:07 AM.

[Yamato]

questionmark, on 26 September 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

You might have intended it as a joke, but certainly growing your own food is the best insurance against hyperinflation or economic collapse. Much better than any Kruger Rands you can buy.

Make sure you have your shotgun locked and loaded when the good neighbors come storming into your property and wiping your insurance out.

[questionmark]

acidhead, on 28 September 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

as much as I can

figures.

[ninjadude]

Yamato, on 28 September 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Inflated gold prices is inflation,.

Gold has ZERO to do with inflation. And therin lies your problem.

[and then]

Jeremiah65, on 27 September 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Ok...I am going to put my ignorance on my sleeve here so everyone can see it.

Br Cornelius is correct on the line of thought...gold is only valuable because we assign it value.  It, for all practical purposes (outside of electronics), is just a pretty soft metal...In theory, you could set the monetary standard to anything that is desirable but that still makes no sense to me.

Why not set the monetary standard to something that actually is valuable and needed...like wheat or grain...beef, pork, chicken, etc.  Things that could actually measure the value of a good days work.  I recall reading somewhere that once upon a time, the value of wages was set based upon the ability to eat and be sheltered (it was years ago and no I do not have a source).  One days work = XX days of food and shelter.  Somehow, through the ages, that has spiraled completely out of control....probably because of just flat out greed.

Again, this is a weak place for me.  I don't have a firm grasp on economics from a monetary perspective and I have never understood why we lust for gold, diamonds and other worthless shiny things.  Well I take that back, at least diamonds can be used as a tool for cutting...gold, silver and platinum, to me, are not worth the value we attach to them...

Ok...ignorance exposed....you can laugh now.

You went first so I'll follow   I also am clueless about economics but it seems to me that for a thing to have value it must be scarce.  The one thing that is finite and in excessive demand is energy - specifically oil.  I know we already have "petro dollars" though I don't really understand that concept fully.  But any system that replaces the one that is crashing will still have all the characteristics of the one being replaced.  IOW it will have to ensure that those on top STAY on top and still give the common person some reason to trust.  Some sort of blanket forgiveness of a % of debt might be useful to sell it to the masses but essentially I think nothing will actually change except type of currency and uniformity of it.  As in One currency for everyone.