Randi's Challenge

[SolarPlexus]

According to the conditions he himself set up, James Randi states that in the final testing of the psychics, ONLY he has the power to judge whether or not the applicant proved any aspect of the paranormal. He is being a judge in his own cause!

He is making the offer, he drafted the conditions, he is the adjucator, he is the judge and he is the jury - about an outcome he has a huge personal interest in. Come on. Proffesor Dennis Rawlins, an American astronomer, historian, and publisher, also a co-founder of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (SCICOP) and an extreme skeptic quotes Randi as saying, "I always have an out. [source]"

... Next Randi (and soon afterwards Bob Sheaffer) tried to get me involved in new projects, i.e., diversions. As part of this effort Randi asked my advice on the Helmut Schmidt parapsychology experiment which some CSICOPs had been investigating. I simply urged that it be approached with all the caution KZA had thrown to the winds in 1975 and 1976.

He assured me how cautious he was in the testing for his well-publicized $ 10,000 prize for proof of psychic abilities (for which he acts as policeman, judge and jury -- and thus never has supported my idea of neutral judgment of CSICOP tests.

"I always have an out,"

he said...

We are violating the vital principles of the Western world, that no-one should be a judge in their own cause (Nemo iudex in causa sua)

[SolarPlexus]

Supreme Court lawyer explains why he strongly advises psychics and mediums to ignore James Randi's so-called $1 million challenge.

[markdohle]

Skeptics are just like everyone else. They have a belief system and will only look at what backs up what they already believe.

Peace

mark

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

It's Randi's money he's fronting up, frankly if it were me, I'd demand that I be the final arbiter of who it goes to as well.

[Sakari]

This sounds like a fabricated story, and a p***ed off person if you ask me.....Anyone can go to the site and see the people that tried, and how JREF bent over backwards to try to accomodate them.....There are rules, and by a contract, must be followed by both parties.

APPLICANT RULES

1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: The Applicant must state clearly, in advance, and the Applicant and the JREF must agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration so far as time, location and other variables are concerned, and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
2. Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted. Anecdotal accounts or records of previous events are not acceptable.
3. The Applicant agrees that all materials and peripheral properties (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the test procedure, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.
4. In all cases, the Applicant will be required to perform a Preliminary Test in a location where a properly authorized representative of the JREF can attend. This Preliminary Test is intended to determine if the Applicant is likely to perform as promised during the Formal Test, using the agreed-upon protocol. To date, no applicant has passed the Preliminary Test, and therefore no Formal Test has yet been conducted. At any time prior to the Formal Test, the JREF reserves the right to re-negotiate the protocol if issues are discovered that would prevent a fair and unbiased test. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without an amended agreement, signed by all parties concerned.
5. All of the Applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the Challenge, are the sole responsibility of the Applicant. Neither the JREF nor any representative of the JREF will bear any of the costs.
6. All applications and other correspondence must be typewritten or printed by computer and in English. Any English translations must be accompanied by certification of qualifications of the translator.
7. Following an unsuccessful test or the rejection of their application, the Applicant must wait 12 months before applying again. The Applicant may not apply more than twice.
8. By accepting this Challenge, the Applicant waives any and all claims against James Randi, the JREF, the JREF's employees, officers, directors, and any other person. This waiver includes, but is not limited to, injury, accident, and damage of any kind, including damage and/or loss of a physical, emotional, financial, and/or professional nature. Notwithstanding anything else in this paragraph, should the Claimant pass the Formal Test, the Claimant does not waive any claims against the JREF that might be necessary to enforce payment of the Prize

http://www.randi.org...pplication.html

Anyone that takes the time to read some of the claiments progress on the forums will see Randi's challenge is more than fair.

Calling him out as a fraud is just a ploy, and a un-founded accusation...

Here, read for yourself...They are actually quite enjoyable.

http://forums.randi....isplay.php?f=43

I would also like to point out, anyone can prove their ability without using his guidelines, and no one has.

Not to mention, Randi is not the only one offering money....

Source(s):

http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/priz…

http://www.iigwest.com/challenge.html

Edited May 13, 2011 by Sakari

[Sakari]

Skeptics are just like everyone else. They have a belief system and will only look at what backs up what they already believe.

Peace

mark

"Skeptics" have facts and proven evidence that back up their " claims "......

Big difference here.

[SolarPlexus]

Anyone that takes the time to read some of the claiments progress on the forums will see Randi's challenge is more than fair.

It's far from fair, thats the point. Dont be so naive, Randi will never publicly admit he's wrong. We all know this deep inside.

If you're gonna create a "challenge" like this, you always make sure that you have a way out. Like this line taken from the Challenge Application you posted

In all cases, the JREF will determine whether the submission is acceptable.

Calling him out as a fraud is just a ploy, and a un-founded accusation...

Why? Is he untouchable? We can all see that it is a *well-founded* accusation

[Sakari]

It's far from fair, thats the point. Dont be so naive, Randi will never publicly admit he's wrong. We all know this deep inside.

If you're gonna create a "challenge" like this, you always make sure that you have a way out. Like this line taken from the Challenge Application you posted

Why? Is he untouchable? We can all see that it is a *well-founded* accusation

We all know deep inside?....that is proof then.

Randi is not the only challenge out there, why are they not giving away money?

Why is no one just proving abilities just to show they exist without a monetary value?

If people could do the things they claim, there would be no limits to stop them.

Have you read the link I posted?...the link on all of the applicants and how jref bent over backwards to appease what they wanted?...And most still bowed out, or could not prove abilities?.....There are hundreds of them.

[Lotus Flower]

According to the conditions he himself set up, James Randi states that in the final testing of the psychics, ONLY he has the power to judge whether or not the applicant proved any aspect of the paranormal. He is being a judge in his own cause!

He is making the offer, he drafted the conditions, he is the adjucator, he is the judge and he is the jury - about an outcome he has a huge personal interest in. Come on. Proffesor Dennis Rawlins, an American astronomer, historian, and publisher, also a co-founder of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (SCICOP) and an extreme skeptic quotes Randi as saying, "I always have an out. [source]"

We are violating the vital principles of the Western world, that no-one should be a judge in their own cause (Nemo iudex in causa sua)

This is precisely why all psychics, clairvoyants, clairaudients etc etc should tell James Randi to stick it up his jacksy and let him sit there, in his own little world and stew.

Why do people panda to this leech? He is nothing but a jumped-up little upstart that has absolutely no intention of ever finding a genuine psychic, in fact, he would go all out to ruin a genuine psychic's reputation, regardless of the consequences.

Just tell him to stick it.

[chaoszerg]

in fact, he would go all out to ruin a genuine psychic's reputation, regardless of the consequences.

We wont know until a genuine psychic turns up.

In all cases, the JREF will determine whether the submission is acceptable.

They are hosting it, so they have the right to say if it is acceptable or not. They are not going to get a bunch of random people off the street to judge.

If psychics dont want to take up his challenge then go to a university or some other place that will hold a test in a CONTROLLED environment.

Edited May 14, 2011 by chaoszerg

[Sakari]

in fact, he would go all out to ruin a genuine psychic's reputation, regardless of the consequences.

A genuine psychic would know his every move, and would be able to ruin him.

No one has answered why no one will do the other challenges , or just prove it for free...

No one has mentioned the link I gave that has the claiments tests, and how they were catered to, yet still failed or bailed.

[IamsSon]

"Skeptics" have facts and proven evidence that back up their " claims "......

Big difference here.

Not always. If they had the facts they would not be skeptical, they would be certain.

[Sakari]

Not always. If they had the facts they would not be skeptical, they would be certain.

Good point.....

I now declare myself a " certain ".....

[darkmoonlady]

Is he still alive, that guy was old back when he was trying to expose Uri Gellar.

[SolarPlexus]

double post sorry

Edited May 14, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[SolarPlexus]

Dont be so naive, Randi will never publicly admit he's wrong. We all know this deep inside.

We all know deep inside?....that is proof then.

No, it is an observation. Come on think. Randi is the judge and jury of an outcome he has a *big* personal interest in. No man in his position would rule against himself, the first logical thing you do is make yourself safe through the contract.

You really think Randi has a honest intention of ever finding a genuine psychic??

Edited May 14, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[Sakari]

No, it is an observation. Come on think. Randi is the judge and jury of an outcome he has a *big* personal interest in. No man in his position would rule against himself, the first thing you do is make yourself safe through the contract

So, if I said I agreed ( I do not ), what about the other places offering money?....Or just proving it to the World for free?

So, you are mad at Randi and think he is a fraud because he has the final say so.This says someone wanted to prove their ability, but Randi denied it.Are they mad because they did not get the money, or because they did not get to show the world?

They can still show the World.

And again, look at the other applicants, hundreds of them, that did not even make it past their own criteria....It is on the link.

[ShadowSot]

JREF and Randi shouldn't be used interchangeably.

For example, it is not his money on the line, but the JREF's.

Randi dosn't make final decisions (and actually, isn't usually that involved in the testing, instead the organizers and specialists who are brought in to do the tests usually do that) it's left to the people doing the experiment.

Randi is getting old, and he's not personally involved in the JREF organization as much.

[chaoszerg]

I think this is more of a be mad at randi because his test is a slap in the face to those claiming to have strange powers, or those who believe in that sort of stuff.

James is not going to get some random joe bloggs off the street to be a judge because quite frankly many people are gullible. James is offering up a huge amount of money and if I was in his position I would be judge too, or at least find someone of a like sceptical mindedness who is not going to be easily wowed by cheap parlour tricks.

Edit:

Since we are on about randi, here he is having a talk about psychics.

Edited May 14, 2011 by chaoszerg

[SolarPlexus]

what about the other places offering money?

Im not familiar with them, wanted to make a thread about Randi

So, you are mad at Randi...

No im not mad at Randi, any man would do the same in his situation

... and think he is a fraud because he has the final say so.

Yes because he has the final say so.

Thats totally normal from his side, im just saying he is a pseudo-skeptic

Edited May 14, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[chaoszerg]

http://www.randi.org/site/

His website for those interested.

[ShadowSot]

Yes because he has the final say so.

Which is just it, he doesn't.

The Million Dollar Challenge director is currently a fellow by the name of Banachek.

The JREF organization does make the final say so, ut this is the organization itself, not Randi.

Which, since it's the JREF's money, makes sense.

Further, if the JREF was doing something shady, I'd expect to hear more from the people being examined, and universally at the exam and afterwards,they will give testimony stating it was a fair test, and usually some reason for why they failed it.

[SolarPlexus]

Which is just it, he doesn't.

The Million Dollar Challenge director is currently a fellow by the name of Banachek.

The JREF organization does make the final say so, ut this is the organization itself, not Randi.

So what if Banachek is the director of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) ? Tell me, who is on the top of the Rockefeller Foundation, Judith Rodin or David Rockefeller? Come on this is nonsense. Randi is the Founder and Chair and Banachek is just appointed as the managing director because Randi is old

And it doesnt even matter who is what, it's irrelevant. Randi and his gang (JREF) will never admit they're wrong, look...

If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural.

(source)

So even if someone meets the Challenge and actually gets the $1.000.000 (unlikely), they still wont admit it! Hahahaha

Edited May 14, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[ShadowSot]

So, you're point is, that despite the JREF doing everything they can to accommodate every person who is willing to take the Challenge, despite the people themselves stating the JREF is very accommodating and very willing to work with them, and the JREF practically stacking everything in the favor of a true psychic entering, you thing they are not faithful to their intent because... they are the one's running it?

Despite no evidence of this, you state they will do so. Most people call that slander.

This isn't a discussion, this is just you shaking your hate stick at a effigy you've created to focus your disgruntlement with James Randi and his organization.

If you want to rant your beef with Randi or the JREF, put it in your blog.

Edited May 14, 2011 by ShadowSot

[eight bits]

I have often posted against drawing conclusions about non-applicants to the Randi challenge, so perhaps the OP will consider some advice about curbing his enthusiasm.

What Randi does is legal under American law. He is not a crook.

You are correct to look at the rules and ask "what is really being offered here?" If you were actually thinking of participating, then you should ask your own American lawyer.

If, however, we are just discussing this in the abstract, then a judge on YouTube or an anonymous hamster like me will suffice.

The rules offer an opportunity to negotiate an agreement, at your own expense. There is nothing about the test being "truly fair," but if it occurs, then you will have agreed to it. There is nothing about the test being "truly scientific," either. And, as is typical of offers to negotiate, there is no guarantee that an agreement will actually be reached. If one is reached in this offer, there is no limit on how long that will take or cost you in the meantime.

Some constraints on what is open for negotiation are announced in the rules. Many people would decline to apply on those grounds alone. For example, the rules move the issue from "whether a person has any genuine abilities" to "whether a person can perform a specifc feat on demand, in public, twice." Those are not the same question.

(The classic hypothetical example, of course, is this test of whether some adult human beings have the ability, rare in the animal kingdom, to walk upright.

You are asked to walk the full length of a rigid and sturdy steel beam, 10 meters long. You are to walk back and forth, once in each direction, supporting your entire weight only with your feet. The walkway is 50 cm wide, clean, horizontal, level, and flat. You must complete the circuit within three minutes.

Can you do this? Not everyone can, but some people say they can. Would you perform that feat for $ 1,000,000?

OK. Let's negotiate some specifics. The beam will be suspended 100 meters in the open air over a concrete surface, without any net.

OH! Unfair example. Randi wouldn't be like that. Maybe not, but the issue is whether there is anything in the rules that prevents him being "like that." No, there isn't. And there is no court in the United States that will order him to pay you a million for walking along any old beam, when that isn't what he offered.)

The original purpose of the Randi challenge, apart from promoting Randi's stage career, was to be a honey trap for crooks who either prey on the credulous, or who induce the general public to buy books, etc. based on false claims about their authors.

Nobody has gotten anywhere near the final round, and there are very few serious applicants. What can be inferred from that is that crooks know that Randi is probably at least as good an illusionist as they are. Not only will they get no money, they will be publicly exposed as crooks.

If you really were psychic, however, then you would know that Randi isn't going to give you any money, ever. Besides, there are plenty of legal ways to make a million with your gifts. And if your ability happens not to be psychic, then you can always hire a lawyer, who'll tell you the same thing.