181 replies to this topic

[C235]

Lion6969, on 27 December 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

It's abundantly clear religion man serves god, god central to his life.

Non religious man serves no god but himself, at the centre of his life.

Actually you do make sense but things can always be more complicated.

Edited by C235, 27 December 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Beany]

Lion6969, on 27 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Those who claim their unbelief is not a religion, they are kidding themselves because their unbelief is also built on the foundations of faith, ie they have faith in the belief that there is no god, because it cannot be proven definitively, their whole belief of unbelief is faith based just like a believers. Lol, the irony is sweet!

Here's a definition of religion: The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. So I'm not seeing how being agnostic or atheist fits into this model. Here's the definition of religious faith: The belief in a 'higher' power or being, often linked to adherence to a particular religion or belonging to the congregation of a particular church. So I don't see agnostics or atheists fitting into this model, either. They have a valid point of view, and likely much of it is based on reason & critical thinking rather than faith.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

Forgive me for that. I'm pretty tired and irritable atm...

[Beany]

Lion6969, on 27 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Religious people serve god hence why their called devout believers.

Non religious people serve themselves. You claim everyone serves themselves, well that's wrong cause devout religious people serve god, ie priests, practising devotees of any faith. Atheists serve themselves I'm not knocking either that's their choice!

When you say non-religious people serve themselves, can you give examples? Because I think the logic is faulty, than one must serve god, or if not, serve themselves. People everywhere, religious or not, serve themselves, that's how we survive, but this is not the same as replacing the concept of God with one's own self (ego) or believing that one's self has the same qualities of a god, or that one is then automatically egocentric, nor that they consistently place their own wants & needs above that of family and/or community. I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, that's why I'm asking for clarification.

[C235]

I always find it that there is no reason to debate. everyone is right to an extend & everyone is wrong at the same time. There is no perfect angle to our perception & its all about perception. Only the one who can look at an object from all angles knows the truth but then he will be pretty messed up in his mind.

[Likely Guy]

This thread is a good example of why I'm an agnostic.

[Artaxerxes]

The soul's lessons are universal meaning they apply to everyone at everytime in history.  Therefore belief is irrelevant.   The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it holistically imprinted with what it need to learn regardless of who we are, or where we live, or what we believe.  The soul learns holistically.  What this means is that just as you go about living your daily life the things you experience every day teach the "soul" what it is supposed to learn.

We are here to experience time and space, duality and separation, and make memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.   Duality and separation teach the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate, time and space teach the soul about time and space, and the memories we make here are what our hereafter will be made of.  The good thing is that we don't live for just ourselves but instead, because of the connectedness and oneness of the other side, all the memories of the universe will be available for us to use to conjure up whatever reality we might wish to experience.  

The physics of heaven is very different than the physics here.   Heaven is the holographic film that our universe is a projection from.  Our universe is simply a holographic projection and therefore "maya" or an illusion.   After we cross over we will look back on this life like it was a dream and that it went by in the blink of an eye.   But because our universe is a holographic projection that means that everything we have lost in this life, all the things we have been separated from, still exist in heaven and that after we cross over we get it all back.   The separation we experience in this life is an illusion.   They are all lessons to teach the soul what separation means, something it can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness. The soul learns here the things it can't learn in heaven.

Art

[Arbenol68]

Lion6969, on 27 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

Non religious person = has a belief that there is no god, so removes god from the centre of his existence. Naturally and logically you replace it with yourself, not nothing! You then serve and exist to serve yourself.

Simples!

I'm sorry. You're just piling one erroneous assumption on another. Why would an atheist have to "remove" god from the centre? Has it never occurred to you that many of us never believed in god to start with (not beyond the child-like beliefs such as Santa and the tooth fairy)? If you never believed, then there's nothing to remove. Nothing to replace. There's no comparison to a theistic belief, however much you might want there to be.

Once you get your head round that, you may be in a better position to understand.

For those atheists that were believers, your logic is equally flawed:

"Naturally and logically you replace it with yourself".

Why? Where's your evidence for this? Because you serve God, does that mean that everyone that doesn't must serve themselves? Beyond just making that claim you'll need to back it up if you want it taken seriously.

Again try talking to someone to find out about them, rather than assuming you already know. Your gross and inaccurate generalisations are not the mark of one who is "philosophically capable". Rather it reflects hopeless and willful ignorance, with a good measure of arrogance thrown in.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Arbenol68, on 27 December 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry. You're just piling one erroneous assumption on another. Why would an atheist have to "remove" god from the centre? Has it never occurred to you that many of us never believed in god to start with (not beyond the child-like beliefs such as Santa and the tooth fairy)? If you never believed, then there's nothing to remove. Nothing to replace. There's no comparison to a theistic belief, however much you might want there to be.

Once you get your head round that, you may be in a better position to understand.

For those atheists that were believers, your logic is equally flawed:

"Naturally and logically you replace it with yourself".

Why? Where's your evidence for this? Because you serve God, does that mean that everyone that doesn't must serve themselves? Beyond just making that claim you'll need to back it up if you want it taken seriously.

Again try talking to someone to find out about them, rather than assuming you already know. Your gross and inaccurate generalisations are not the mark of one who is "philosophically capable". Rather it reflects hopeless and willful ignorance, with a good measure of arrogance thrown in.

You posted the words that I was going to post before I was able to post them because you did first...

[Beany]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 27 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Ooi. I can actually hear you getting dumber...

How many times must it be explained!?!?

Until it makes logical sense. An atheist who doesn't believe in a god would have no need to replace the concept of God with self or anything else. Please don't refer to those of us who disagree with your statements or question your logic as being dumb. When we begin to insult those with whom we disagree we place ourselves in a position where we are out of communication and become so insistent on our dogma that all learning stops.

[Liquid Gardens]

Arbenol68, on 27 December 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

For those atheists that were believers, your logic is equally flawed:

"Naturally and logically you replace it with yourself".

Why? Where's your evidence for this? Because you serve God, does that mean that everyone that doesn't must serve themselves? Beyond just making that claim you'll need to back it up if you want it taken seriously.

Again try talking to someone to find out about them, rather than assuming you already know. Your gross and inaccurate generalisations are not the mark of one who is "philosophically capable". Rather it reflects hopeless and willful ignorance, with a good measure of arrogance thrown in.

Good post Arbenol, I'm in full agreement.  What gets sticky I think is that it isn't as if religions don't contain as part of their dogma negative statements about atheists.  In Christianity we are 'fools' and have no excuse since creation is evidence of God, we are the swine that the pearls are not to be given to, etc; in the present day practice of many flavors of Islam, unbelievers are even worse.  In other words, if you believe in God then I don't know that 'atheists serve themselves' is an 'unfounded' conclusion also, it's a religious belief and depending on what kind of believer you are dealing with, is impervious just like the statement 'God exists' (although I find a direct correlation between a religious belief's invulnerability and it's emptiness).  

What is more obviously incorrect that you were right to object to is the use of the terms 'naturally and logically' in that statement however, I agree that 'atheists serve themselves' most certainly doesn't 'naturally' follow and only 'logically' follow if you first accept the bad premises on which the conclusions are based.

[Mr Right Wing]

ealdwita, on 23 December 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

The days are gone when gods were 'necessary'. No longer do we need them as scapegoats for ill-fortune, plague, crop failure and just plain bad luck. The threat of eternal damnation no longer has the power to keep most of the flock in line and ensure a 'Right Hand of God' seat to watch the 'unrighteous' suffer eternity in the flames of hell.

I wonder how many of those questioned replied "I think there must be something 'up there' but I don't believe in organized religion."? And were they counted as 'unbelievers'?

What an interesting artical. Its at odds with this one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism - which says atheists make up 2.3% of the world population.

I dont know who wrote the article posted by the OP but I suspect they've distorted the rest of the world to be like the US. Most of the planet is deeply religious.

[Hasina]

I don't believe this. -ba-dum(was that even worthy of a rimshot? Whatever...)-tsh-

[Sean93]

The whole unbelief thing is new for sure but religions losing their flock? (Banned word for female dog) please.

This is to be expected, it was always to be expected. The churches of Anubis, Thor (breaks my heart) and all of those other god and goddesses lost their followers over time and Christianity, Hinduism or whatever else are no different and are not immune to being replaced.

[Sean93]

Mr Right Wing, on 27 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

What an interesting artical. Its at odds with this one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism - which says atheists make up 2.3% of the world population.

I dont know who wrote the article posted by the OP but I suspect they've distorted the rest of the world to be like the US. Most of the planet is deeply religious.

Take note of the fact that there are Millions of people labelled under s faith but don't actually believe in it. As far as everyone is concerned (my records etc.) I'm a catholic...but I'm not and don't believe it.

I wonder how many Atheists there are in the middle east who obviously won't 'come out' because they'll be killed, or Atheists in Sweet Home Jesus-Abama who are also afraid of coming out? That's happening all over the world.

In a developed and open society it's very easy to declare Atheism, so easy here in the UK but somewhere like Afghanistan or 'Murica? forget about it, in those places and many others, Atheists are treated with horrible contempt.

(P.S) Wikipedia isn't always reliable, better to check the census' and that of the world, I once changed a Wikipedia article to include myself in a band for the lulz and also put derogatory statement up about someone, I could easily change the world Atheist population to 100% for  while.

Edited by Sean93, 27 December 2012 - 06:41 PM.