Madrid 3/11

[Fenris]

Given the other thread is a condolance thread I thought it better to start a new one for discussion of peoples thoughts on the how and why this happened.

There is realy only two realistic choises for who actualy carried out this attrocity, ETA or Al Quida.

ETA... Impending general election in two days time, so the timing would definatly point to them. However the target and M.O. doesn't. ETA historicaly always gives a warning and the worst attack they ever mounted, where 21 people died in a bomb attack on a supermarket... ETA released an appology, it wasn't their normal kind of target, they have always preffered to hit political or law enforcement targets rather than causing mass carnage amongs the general civilian population.

An attack of this nature would be totaly counter productive to the aims of ETA. Since the Basque region was given autonamy their support has ebbed away, holding out for total independence is lass appealing when you have most of the freedoms already. (Long gone are the represive days of Franko). An attack of this magnatude automaticaly alienates everyone barring the most fanatical.... a level of fanatisism never before seen in the ranks of ETA, but a hallmark of Al Quida

Yes, a truckload of explosives where caught headed for Madrid just weeks ago and the drivers where from ETA..... However that doesn't mean the attacks where neccessaraly carried out by them. There is a history of 'black market' co-operation between terrorist organisations even where their ideologys preclude joint operations.

IMO the most likely ETA involvement is in selling the explosives to the group who actualy carried out the attack.

Even in the attack the appologised for, ETA did claim responsibility for it.... they haven't done so here. Al Quida HAVE made the claim.

Detonators and a tape of readings from the Quarran have been found in a van in a town where three of the trains that where bombed started their journeys into Madrid.

Al Quida have open threats of revenge attacks on the three European countrys who gave the USA the most support in the attacks on Afganistan and Iraq... UK, Italy and.... SPAIN! Spain currently has arouns 1300 troops in Peacekeeping roles in Iraq.

The scale of the attack, the lack of warning, targetting the general populous, simultainious explosions.... all fully in line with attacks Al Quida have pulled before.

Theres the basis of my current thinking on this.... any other PoV's?

[Telemachos]

I read somewhere that 3/11-2004 is exactly 911 days after 9/11-2001...

[DespondentDave]

When I first heard of the attacks I thought it was ETA, but the more you think about it, the more the finger points to Al-Qaeda, and that's without even taking into consideration the 'claim' by the Al-Qaeda affiliated group.

ETA, when making terrorist attacks, normarily give an advance warning, even if it is coded, of an impending attack; in this case there were none. To carry out ten simultaneous attacks requires a huge amount of planning, and let us not forget the Basques do not have suicide bombers. It seems very unlikely to me that these attacks were carried out by simply leaving packages. I dare say evidence will shed some light on this over the next few days.

Other pointers to Al-Qaeda are the fact that it was 911 days since 9/11, and also exactly six months since the anniversary. Too much of a coincidence surely!?

Finally, the people of Spain did not want to be involved with the invasion of Iraq, whereas it's Government offered it's support. Al-Qaeda are quite clever; they know that reather than the people of Spain turning against them, they will turn against their Government, and blame them for dragging them into a situation they felt they should not have been in.

[Erikl]

I bet it was Al-Qaeda.

This is their pattern of actions.

And to the reasons - well, those guys are living in medieval times, thats their mentallity, so they did it as part of their religious war against the "crusaders and jews", as they like to put it.

Don't try to find logical reasons, cause you won't. They are fanatics. They lack any logic in their actions.

Edited March 12, 2004 by Erikl

[Fenris]

Don't try to find logical reasons, cause you won't. They are fanatics. They lack any logic in their actions.

Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

Understanding doesn't mean agreeing with, but it does help you understand what groups like these use to recruit new members, the nieve, the desprate, those that feel so disenfranchised and dis-abled that such actions take on an appeal.

If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.

[wunarmdscissor]

Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

Understanding doesn't mean agreeing with, but it does help you understand what groups like these use to recruit new members, the nieve, the desprate, those that feel so disenfranchised and dis-abled that such actions take on an appeal.

If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.

Totally agree with what your saying ...great post

[thebarman]

I read somewhere that 3/11-2004 is exactly 911 days after 9/11-2001...

It's close, it's actually 912

[thebarman]

Totally agree with what your saying ...great post

Seconded, well said

[Stamford]

If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.

What are the root problems that compel these maniacs to destroy?

Because unless we deal with this then we are never going to stop these people.

Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.

I know that the Iraq War has rallied more to the cause as has the US's and Uk's support for Israel against the Pallestinians.

The frightening thing is that the news in the UK last night was saying that Osama probably didn't even know this attack was going to take place; that his splinter groups scattered across the globe are now acting on their own.

[Fenris]

Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.

I think your looking at the wrong things there.

Yes the Israel situation has instigated terrorism, as has afganistan, as has Iraq... Same with Northern Ireland, Basque region, chechnia..... but why?

The only think I can see in common in all those cases is a group of people who felt imposed on, dis-empowered by another ruling group.

But that can't be all of it.... heck during the Thatcher years I felt like a minority who was dis-empowered by the ruling group (Socialist and a Union activist) but I didn't start blowing people up.... so what makes the diffrence?

I'd say... hope! Those that get to the point where terrorist groups can recruit them seem to have lost all hope that ANYTHING else they do can get them through the situation. That dispair makes them vulnerable to being manipulated and controlled, used by the likes of Bin Laden.

Both ETA and the IRA have became significantly less of a threat in the last decade, and for the same reason...... in both cases the reason they where fighting has been pulled out from under them. Basque now has autonemy and Northern Ireland has an ongoing peace process (which is far more under threat from loyalist factions trying to destablise it than from the IRA).... they lost their justification, when parts of their groups try to continue the terrorist agenda of violence, the people they are supposedly fighting for.... the people they hope will sympathise with them.... see them for what they really are... mindless thugs.

Its harder to do with a group like Al Quida, hiding behind religious fundamentalism and with Christian fundamentalist presidents playing right into their hands on occassion.... but the ETA/IRA experience does give us a clue as to A way which terrorists can be made less of a threat.... we just have to understand, learn from experience and learn how to apply those lessons.

[Erikl]

Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

What logic could you possibly find in their sadistic minds?

Those are not people who fight for freedom or to improve their life (not that I agree with that kind of reasons for terrorism - there are no reasons fot that, but atleast there is a logic behind it). Those are people who think they are still fighting against the Crusaders. They are religious fanatics, not people with a clear mind. They are set to destroy western civilization and convert everyone to their kind of thinking. They are motivated by pure hatred, not unlike other forces in history.

[Fenris]

Those are people who think they are still fighting against the Crusaders. They are religious fanatics, not people with a clear mind. They are set to destroy western civilization and convert everyone to their kind of thinking. They are motivated by pure hatred, not unlike other forces in history.

You contradict yourself. You claim they have no logic then go on to explain the logic of what you suppose their position to be.... anti-western values

If you refuse to even attempt to engauge the root problem then aren't you doing exactly what your claiming they are attempting to do "I'm right, your wrong, you MUST do things MY way"? converting everyone to your kind of thinking?

The world is a big place with more cultural values than those you or I grew up with. These people are NOT born as ready made terrorists, if we can understand their mindset and educate ourselves, then we have a chance of educating others and finding ways for our various cultures to co-exist without various groups being disenfranchised and rendered hopeless.... without a great number of these people being drawn into the extreamist positions that breed terrorism.

A great deal of hatered stems from ignorance and lack of understanding.

[Stamford]

QUOTE 

Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.

I think your looking at the wrong things there.

Actually one of the triggers for Osama's hatred of the West and primarily the US, was the fact that the Allie's troops were stationed in Saudi during the Gulf War; this he felt was an insult to Islam, the infadel's soldiers in the holy land - even though these troops were there as a launch pad to repel Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

I think that to compare ETA or the IRA with these maniacs is wrong; the aforementioned had an obvious cause the freedom of there respective countries/regions from what they saw as an invading power Britain/Spain.

Just what are Al Quida's intentions? What would it take for them to claim victory and lay down their weapons?

Do they have any demands?

[Erikl]

Just what are Al Quida's intentions? What would it take for them to claim victory and lay down their weapons?

Do they have any demands?

Their plans are to conquer the world, plain and simple.

[Stamford]

Their plans are to conquer the world, plain and simple.

Can't agree with that, i'm afraid.

Al Quida maybe a threat to world security, but their numbers are small, hence the difficulty tracking them down.

How are they going to conquer the world with such small numbers and, let's be honest, primitive weaponary?

[Erikl]

Can't agree with that, i'm afraid.

Al Quida maybe a threat to world security, but their numbers are small, hence the difficulty tracking them down.

How are they going to conquer the world with such small numbers and, let's be honest, primitive weaponary?

Exactly my point! They are not logical "people".

They live in a dream world, in the past.

[stillcrazy]

It's close, it's actually 912

thebarman, Don't count 9.11.01 Start on 9.12.01. and go foreward 911 days after 9.11.01 is 3.11.04. 311 days After3.11.03 is 1.17.05

[colorless]

2001

September- 19 days left after 9/11

October- 31 days

November- 30 days

December- 31 days

2002

January-31 days

February-28 days

March-31 days

April-30 days

May-31 days

June-30 days

July-31 days

August-31 days

September-30 days

October-31 days

November-30 days

December-31 days

2003

January-31 days

February-28 days

March-31 days

April-30 days

May-31 days

June-30 days

July-31 days

August-31 days

September-30 days

October-31 days

November-30 days

December-31 days

2004

January-31 days

February-29 days

March-11

912

I think...

Edited March 13, 2004 by siphis

[Talon]

In refrence to the bit at the bigging about who war behind it and saying it doesn't sound like Eta's style, I found this

"Mike Yardley, a psychologist and historian of terrorism, said the al Qaeda method of attack was unexpected, low-tech and with the aim of inflicting mass casualties. 'Regional terrorist groups like the IRA or ETA or the PLO, through its various military wings, always hesitate from inflicting mass casualties because it's not in their political interest to do so.'

He said 'that the largest number of deaths caused by an ETA attack was in the low 20s, a figure that was similar for other terrorist organisations like the IRA.

The typical attack for groups like these was one where a few people died. They would not risk killing dozens of civilians because their attack would "goad the state into draconian measures likely to harm the organisations,' "

Source: Skynews

Also this site claims to have genuine evidence that a group callled Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri was responsible. Plus they say attacks will be made on US, UK, Poland, Japan, Australia, and Italy. Might be fake though.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3000...1126951,00.html

[Gazz]

Logic?

When you relly look at the attacks of

9/11/01 you must see that they were

very smart, their tactics were amazing.

They really just bought some plane tickets

and some box cutters.

And with some basic flight training..

just look what they were able to do.

Never underestimate the enemy.

and never make the mistake of thinking

that they are stupid little 'ragheads'.

These terrorists are educated in the

finest schools and colleges of this world.

They have hundreds of millions of US

dollars, and they have a cause that they

believe so strongly in they are willing

to die for it.

They will not go away.. in fact they

seem to get better at their evil work

with each attack.

Just when we think we are winning, or

we have them under control, that is the

moment you should most fear!

Gazz

[Dowdy]

i heard on the news they said that Al Qaeda is also 90% ready for an attack on america again.

Never underestimate the enemy...

[stillcrazy]

912

I think...

siphis, I just used a calander calculator ond even adding for leap year it came up with 911 days, but it could be wrong.

think it's a good time to retire now.

Bye all

[Fenris]

Can't agree with that, i'm afraid.

Al Quida maybe a threat to world security, but their numbers are small, hence the difficulty tracking them down.

How are they going to conquer the world with such small numbers and, let's be honest, primitive weaponary?

Exactly my point! They are not logical "people".

They live in a dream world, in the past.

Erikl, do you actualy read what your writing?

Its you thats comming across as confused, illogical and contradicting yourself.

You first claim they are trying to "Take over the world"... (Cue theme tune to Pinky and the Brain!!!). When someone points out the impossibility of your claim, you then agree with him and try to act as if it proved your point... which it doesn't.

Your entire possition seems built on ignorance, rhetoric and knee jerk reactions as well as a few things that I'd only be speculating on if I went into... so I won't.

One of their obvious goals IS to spread fundamentalist Islamic control yes.

But that isn't "Taking over" that simply the spreading of an idea.... and it doesn't take many people to do that! Its been done, peacefully and effectivly with just one man before.... Martin luthor, Ghandi, Mandela.....

You can't fight an idea by sticking your head somewhere dark and smelly. You fight it by understanding it and understanding the appeal it has to others.... then by finding ways to counter the agrument.

As for the poster that tried to draw a line between the likes of ETA/IRA and Al Qaeda..... Having grown up with the threat of the IRA I tend to see one set of people who are willing and able to blow up innocent civilians as having more in common with another such group than they do with 'normal' society!

[Erikl]

'Regional terrorist groups like the IRA or ETA or the PLO, through its various military wings, always hesitate from inflicting mass casualties because it's not in their political interest to do so.'

I'm sorry but Mr. Yardley don't know what he is talking about. As I agree that ETA and IRA aren't that cruel, the PLO has lot's of blood on their hands, and not only in Israel, but also in Jordan and Lebanon.

For example, the Black September in Jordan, 1970, which started after the PLO blowed up four airplanes full of people.

The Munich massacre of 1972.

The Lebanon War which included PLO's massacaring thousands and raping and turturing many more.

And ofcourse the current Intifada where the PLO is responsible for most of Israel's losts (including the Passover massacred of 2002 which killed 30 people in an hotel).

The Lebanon War

The PLO in Lebanon

Black September, Jordan 1970

The Munich Massacre, 1972

PLO phased plan

And to Fenris:

Let's just agree that we dissagree with each other . I don't want oto argue, cause that will only close the thread.

[Fenris]

Ah so any discussion that your false-premis gets disected and shown to be erronious is suddenly an argument?

I've another group noted for terrorism and breaking of UN ressolutions, causing countless civilian casualtys..... The Israeli government.

A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.... there maybe a diffrence in scale between ETA/IRA and Al Quaeda/Israel... but bottom line its the same, inoccent civilian targets getting blown to pieces.

By the time your facing a fanatic (Or soldier) with a gun or bomb its too late. The only way to stop the cycle of hatred/vengence is to do something about the causes of people taking up arms in the first place. Solve the situation, win the argument.

One man with a loaded weapon is a small threat.... the idea that brought him there is far worse... for that idea will keep on drawing more people until its dealt with.

You seem to think its all about the violence and that the politics are irrelivant.... thats the kind of thinking that not only perpetuates it, but actualy enables it to grow.