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Ban to fail students who challenge science


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#46    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 28 February 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point?
Education, you ever heard of it?


#47    Uncle Sam

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:54 PM

View Postand then, on 01 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Come now, are you saying that religious types or ideas are gaining MORE prominence or power in today's educational system?  It is clearly the opposite.


No religion is allowed to dominate any government or school institution for a reason. Lately Christian groups have been pushing hard to advance their means in political environment as well as school environment. It would lead to a loss of scientific education for students, essential skills for competing in today's world. It means it is not mandatory anymore for students to actively learn science and further their understanding of their world around them and that means they can be swayed to give up science for religion by very forceful religions.

Most religious people I have ran into condemn me to hell because I believe in evolution and scientific understanding, it hurts the children because they can be used by religions with an agenda. Every religious groups I met, that gets involved with politics and schools always have a agenda, which leads to them furthering their religious values onto the students. There are many types of people who personally practice religion in the school, I believe it should stay that way, not have one group of religion dominate over all other religions.

I'm a Atheist. I know how all religions equally hate us Atheists and despise science. Pretty much deal with the ignorance and name calling every single day.

Edited by Uncle Sam, 01 March 2013 - 12:55 PM.

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#48    Colonel Rhubarb

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

View Postninjadude, on 01 March 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:
I'm pretty sure that keyboards were around before the 1960s. I saw a film with a typewriter in once, and that was in Black & White.

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#49    Colonel Rhubarb

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 01 March 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

That's a great point :)  

I liked college since there were a lot of open discussions instead of a this is unrefutable fact like teaching in most of the lower grades. Good teachers RULE because they allow it.

Reminds me of the guy who was suspended in Catholic school because of a theology class. They were discussing the pagans, the crusades and the commandment not to have idols and statues etc. He spoke out that  the crusades was a way to pillage others and bring back riches to the church and what are all the statues of saints that we bow down and pray to but idols?  you're making me a pagan!  

that was exactly what the Puritans said about the Catholics after the Reformation...

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#50    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:05 AM

View Postninjadude, on 01 March 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:

sorry out of the loop for a bit. But anyway I feel I need to respond to this a..."comment" .. REALLY do you have any freaking clue about what you type or do just wing it? a little research on your part will relieve the rest of us from getting so frustrated with you. computers have been around since yes the 60's the apollo missions were not flown by hand. now granted the computer has been refined since then as has the internet(which was not created by Al Gore) but it was created with 60's tech so try again if you dare.

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#51    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 01 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Education, you ever heard of it?
What is the educational benefit to teaching them a hypotesis that has yet to be proven true while not teaching them other hypothesis. just because one is believed by the religious side and the other by the secular side of our society which one has more proof is debatable. which one takes more faith to believe in? If the argument is teaching creation holds our society back in some way my argument is that since we have started teaching evolution we haven't moved forward. In fact a valid argument could be made our society has moved backwards. and I'm just talking educationally I don't want to get into a discussion of all the other facets of our society that are slipping.

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread" --Thomas Jefferson(1821)

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#52    Br Cornelius

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 27 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well, exactly. if the massed armies of Experts would devote a bit of their time to considering how people could best adapt to changing climates, (since climates of course always have changed over tiome and always will do), rather than just shouting "Climate change is real and Irreversible,and it's all your fault!! You're destroying Planet Earth!!!!", perhaps the "skeptics" might be more prepared to listen to them. As it is, a,lot of people just tend to dismiss them as just another bunch doom mongers who keep shouting all the time. Really, it's very counterproductive.
The debate about what to do can only begoin when policy makers accept that there is a genuine cause for concern. Due to the activities of vested interests that has not happened and so nop action has been taken. Understanding and accepting the causes is fundamental to formulating the response so fudging the man made origin will ultimately be counter productive as the wrong responses will be taken.
The problem is that fossil fuel interest, who have a vested interest in not addressing the underlying causes have spent billions on promoting the idea that there is nothing that we can do to stop climate change. Hence no action can be taken.

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#53    Stellar

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:12 PM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 05 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:


What is the educational benefit to teaching them a hypotesis that has yet to be proven true while not teaching them other hypothesis. just because one is believed by the religious side and the other by the secular side of our society which one has more proof is debatable. which one takes more faith to believe in? If the argument is teaching creation holds our society back in some way my argument is that since we have started teaching evolution we haven't moved forward. In fact a valid argument could be made our society has moved backwards. and I'm just talking educationally I don't want to get into a discussion of all the other facets of our society that are slipping.

Perhaps less time should be spent teaching evolution and more spent teaching students the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, as clearly there is a sect in your society that's inept at understanding the difference.


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#54    Br Cornelius

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostStellar, on 05 March 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Perhaps less time should be spent teaching evolution and more spent teaching students the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, as clearly there is a sect in your society that's inept at understanding the difference.
It would certainly be better if our education system equipped us to rationally assess data and come to a reasonable conclusion based on it. However that almost completely the opposite of what education generally sets out to achieve (until masters level at least). In that situation allowing students to entertain the notion that dinosaurs co-existed with man is a slippery slope where fact is impossible to differentiate against fiction.

I say solve the problem with an education system which is geared to produce complaint technicians rather than thinking people - but I suspect that wish is also a fantasy.

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#55    Amon-Ra

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:25 PM

I think the comments miss the point.  The proposal bans failing a student for personal belief, not for not knowing the subject.  Of course the science classes should teach science and students should show on tests that they learned it.  It is none of the teachers business what the student actually believes.
Some of the side comments are unhistorical. The Church never taught that the Earth was the center in any scientific sense, it taught that since God became man on planet Earth then Earth is central in importance.  Also: all educated people knew the world is round and knew how big it is, the ancient Greeks calculated it correctly.  They also knew that their ships could not make it to China.  They did not know about the Americas.

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#56    Stellar

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostAmon-Ra, on 05 March 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think the comments miss the point.  The proposal bans failing a student for personal belief, not for not knowing the subject.  Of course the science classes should teach science and students should show on tests that they learned it.  It is none of the teachers business what the student actually believes.
Some of the side comments are unhistorical. The Church never taught that the Earth was the center in any scientific sense, it taught that since God became man on planet Earth then Earth is central in importance.  Also: all educated people knew the world is round and knew how big it is, the ancient Greeks calculated it correctly.  They also knew that their ships could not make it to China.  They did not know about the Americas.

I don't think this is about banning people from personal belief, although the article is a bit ambiguous on that. The teachers marks are based on test answers, no? So how could they ever have given a student an F for saying they believe in young earth creationism if the student got As on all his tests? No... Clearly the article in question is about preventing a student from failing if they answer test questions with their belief rather than with the correct answer.

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#57    Queen in the North

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 05 March 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

It would certainly be better if our education system equipped us to rationally assess data and come to a reasonable conclusion based on it. However that almost completely the opposite of what education generally sets out to achieve (until masters level at least). In that situation allowing students to entertain the notion that dinosaurs co-existed with man is a slippery slope where fact is impossible to differentiate against fiction.

I say solve the problem with an education system which is geared to produce complaint technicians rather than thinking people - but I suspect that wish is also a fantasy.

Br Cornelius
Weirdly, in school, the place I was learned more about rationally assessing things and thinking critically, was Religious Studies (at A level, that is).

Our particular course was Philosophy & Ethics, taught by a Catholic (Catholic school) but he was very good at never attempting to tell us things, but present us with the theory, let us talk about them, pull --certain theories-- to shreds, and then getting us to write what we thought of them. Of course, this was a RE class, where justifying your own opinion with a suitable reason drawn from a fact or theory was enough to get marks.

It was the sciences where it was 1, 2, 3 - these are the facts, learn them, be able to rewrite them in the exam to get a good mark. And that has probably served me less well at university as the 'facts' we learned at A level aren't relevant now, or in too little detail, but being able to critically assess a text given to me has continued to be of use.

Slightly tangential, I know, but realising that made me go 'Woah!' My RE A level was useful after all...

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#58    ninjadude

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:14 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 01 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that keyboards were around before the 1960s. I saw a film with a typewriter in once, and that was in Black & White.

typewriters don't connect to the internet. Computers do.

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#59    ninjadude

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:22 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 05 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

What is the educational benefit to teaching them a hypotesis that has yet to be proven true while not teaching them other hypothesis

Hypothesis are not "proven true" that's the whole point you're missing. There is a preponderance of evidence for a particular theory. They are never proven true. By your logic we should teach the flat earthers and the moon made of cheese.

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#60    ninjadude

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:24 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 05 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

. computers have been around since yes the 60's the apollo missions were not flown by hand. now granted the computer has been refined since then as has the internet but it was created with 60's tech

You're really funny if you think that's the same thing.

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