Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 #1 Share Posted December 7, 2004 (edited) This was a debate a while back over whether animals have a soul. I said they did, now I have the text to show you all who don't believe they do. Enoch 2 [J]: 58:2 And the Lord summoned all the animals of the Earth and all the reptiles of the Earth and all the birds that fly in the air, and he brought them all before the face of our father Adam, so that he might pronounce names for all the quadrupeds; and [Adam] named everything that lives on the Earth. And the Lord appointed him over everything [as king], and he subjected everything to him in subservience under his hand, both the dumb and the deaf, to be commanded and for submission and for every servitude. So also to every human being. The Lord created mankind to be the lord of all his possessions. And the Lord will not judge a single animal soul for the sake of man; but human souls he will judge for the souls of their animals In the great age, there is a special place for human beings. And just as every human soul is according to number, so also it is with animal souls. And not a single soul which the Lord has created will perish until the great judgement. And every kind of aminal soul will accuse the human beings who have fed them badly. Enoch 59:1 [Enoch teaches all his sons why they should not touch an ox, because of the outflow.] "He who acts lawlesly with the soul of an animal acts lawlessly with his own soul The sentence didn't finish there, but you can read the rest yourself, except for this part which I HAD to add. btw, if it's blue in between the passages it's MY writing obviously not the Enoch text. [And] He who does any kind of harm whatsoever to any kind of animal in secret, it is an evil custom, and he acts lawlessly with his own soul In other words, if you harm animals for cruelty, etc, you WILL pay for it later. Bet the greenies would be happy about that one lol. And THEY will accuse you with THEIR own souls. Edited December 7, 2004 by Ashley-Star*Child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePortal Posted December 7, 2004 #2 Share Posted December 7, 2004 no need to convince me anyways..... I know they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #3 Share Posted December 7, 2004 (edited) Good to see someone does Obviously, people should realize, if THEY have a soul, and they are living, an animal too, which is also living, has a soul. Although, there are those who don't even believe that they themselves don't have a soul...I won't even go there. Edited December 7, 2004 by Ashley-Star*Child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted December 7, 2004 #4 Share Posted December 7, 2004 (edited) Before we start wondering whether animals have souls or not, we should define what soul is. What is a soul? (Other than the little cloud that goes around over our head ) Edited December 7, 2004 by Asterix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #5 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Your soul is as you are, and apart of you, it is what makes you alive in the first place, and when you die, that's all that will be left of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #6 Share Posted December 7, 2004 (edited) What is it with the clouds?? It's not a cloud. Every human that dies is 5lbs lighter when they're soul has left the body and they flatlined. That is the weight of the human soul. Edited December 7, 2004 by Ashley-Star*Child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #7 Share Posted December 7, 2004 It's not a cloud. Every human that dies is 5lbs lighter when they're soul has left the body and they flatlined. That's actually believed to be a natural weight loss due to moisture evaporation in the early stages of death. The 5lbs is actually lost gradually, it's not instantanious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #8 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Yes, but that's also believed by people such as yourself that believe they don't have a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #9 Share Posted December 7, 2004 What? Don't be daft, that's believed by people who took the time to look into what was actually happening, rather than going "oh, it's a soul! It's a soul!" The body does lose a few pounds in the couple of hours following death...however, as I said, that's moisture evaporation. This is a fact, as the body does indeed lose moisture after death. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a soul. It doesn't disprove the existance of a soul by any means, but it does mean the weight loss after death is completely unconnected with the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #10 Share Posted December 7, 2004 And this comes from someone who has held the dead, right? Have you felt that 'moisture evaporation' instantly leave the body? It's instant, the weight is there, and then it is gone, and the body flops, lifeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #11 Share Posted December 7, 2004 As I've already explained to you, the loss isn't intantanious. The 5lbs is lost over the course of a couple of hours. If you've read a non-medical source claiming it is instantanious, then your source is either illinformed, or lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consummate Deist Posted December 7, 2004 #12 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Shadowsleet, don't you know that you are arguing with a person possessing an IQ of 210 (anything above 160 usually results in mental instability and eventual institutionalization - nuff said). Ashley has made up her mind and any logic or fact won't say her from her fairytale. As for animal souls, if there are souls (the Deist take on souls is closer to Buddhism than Christianity), then animals would have them also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #13 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Experience says more than a book. C.D., Are you mocking me? Ahh, no wait, that's why you avatar is green right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #14 Share Posted December 7, 2004 You're right, experience does say more than a book...therefore, I'll take the word of those who've taken time to go out there and research this phenominon, to come to a proper understanding of it, over the word of someone who probably read about the 5lb loss on a site called godiswithusandgivinguscola.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley-Star*Child Posted December 7, 2004 Author #15 Share Posted December 7, 2004 No, I am talking about my own experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #16 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Your own experience of putting a dying person on a scale, and marking down exactly how long it took the 5lbs to disappear after they died? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Manfred Posted December 7, 2004 #17 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Personally I do not believe in souls. So a question (this is not intended to be cynical): If humans and animals have souls, and as you said, anything living...does that include plants, trees, flowers, insects and even micro-organisms? Bacteria is alive. So is fire in a manner of speaking. Where do the supreme beings draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsleet Posted December 7, 2004 #18 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Fire is not alive. It doesn't meet the five requirements to be considered a living organism. Fire is a form of energy release, much in the same way as body heat, or static electricity. And if animals have a soul, we would have to include insects, as they are also animals Flowers, trees, and most micro-organisms are plants, so I guess you'd have to consider them all together. I don't believe in souls either to be honest, it's a spiritual concept, to which I don't personally conscribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putte Posted December 7, 2004 #19 Share Posted December 7, 2004 In the definition of what a soul is, my best bet is that it is what gives you free will. Anything without a free will doesn't have a soul (generally speaking). And Ashley, how can you take Shadow's saying that the 5lb loss of weight after death is him saying there aren't any souls? People like you make own conclusions from things that aren't even there! Making a hen from a feather, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consummate Deist Posted December 7, 2004 #20 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Are you mocking me? Why yes, yes I am; how astute of you to notice! Where do the supreme beings draw the line? I really don't know but will make a point of asking him when I meet him! If there are souls, how do we know that we have one, they may be reserved for creatures higher on the evolutionary plane that we are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putte Posted December 7, 2004 #21 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Are you mocking me? Why yes, yes I am; how astute of you to notice! lol - astitute - is that even a word? If there are souls, how do we know that we have one, they may be reserved for creatures higher on the evolutionary plane that we are! 390776[/snapback] But to know if we have a soul, we need to know what a soul is... It all boils down to that really, it seems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted December 7, 2004 #22 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Animal, from Latin animle, neuter of animlis, living, from anima, soul; the inner self of an individual; the soul. Animal - Anima is, therefore, the unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to his intellectual persona that is developed by his unconscious anima through the life of its physical body, or outer aspect of such a soul and personality. When the physical vehicle dies only the soul and personality remains; the soul and personality can exist within the fourth dimension (time) without their physical wrap. The effulgence of the atoms of the soul and personality cannot be perceived by the five senses, because their quanta move at a tetradimensional speed and not at a tridimensional speed. As Intellectual Animas we are tetra-dimensionally constituted, but unfortunately, with our five senses, we only perceive three dimensions from our own natural animal-constitution. If, with our five senses, we cannot perceive our own particular inner psychological constitution, how do we expect to perceive the inner psychological constitution of nature and the cosmos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverCougar Posted December 7, 2004 #23 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Now see, "Animals have a soul" I can agree with. But I also believe everything has a soul, or spirit. Mother Earth being the spirit for the planet... every rock and tree having thier own... The Great Spirit made everything for Mother Earth and all her children. (quick, look away, I'm not being spiritual >.< lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Raven Posted December 7, 2004 #24 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Now see, "Animals have a soul" I can agree with. But I also believe everything has a soul, or spirit. Mother Earth being the spirit for the planet... every rock and tree having thier own... The Great Spirit made everything for Mother Earth and all her children. (quick, look away, I'm not being spiritual >.< lol) 390970[/snapback] I have to agree with that, and even if you do not believe in spirits or souls, I don't see how you can not agree with the respect and kindness that teaches, not to waste or do mindless harm. I do believe animals have souls, and you have to treat animals with the greatest respect and honor them, our only differences are our bodies. If you disrespect an animal, you will pay, weather it be by whatever divine forces you believe in, or by society itself. Think twice before you try and disrespect an animal, because a little thing called karma is a great tool of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consummate Deist Posted December 7, 2004 #25 Share Posted December 7, 2004 lol - astitute - is that even a word? Main Entry: as•tute Pronunciation: &-'stüt, a-, -'styüt Function: adjective Etymology: Latin astutus, from astus craft : having or showing shrewdness and perspicacity <an astute observer> <astute remarks>; also : CRAFTY, WILY synonym see SHREWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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