Direct ways and pagan items...

[Asterix]

I visited today an interesting expo, with lots of Christmas stuff and not only. From the traditional lights and trees and ornaments to other nice items like traditional indian dreamcatchers and traditional finnish woodcrafts for christmas. I bought a very beautiful dreamcatcher, with which indians used to chase the bad dreams away. Because of this, an interesting chain of thoughts came to my mind, which I'm about to share..

Could it be that one of the most important reasons for the failure of the Catholic Church is the fact that it lacks comprehension of how the average person can picture and materialize the essence of the divine? Could it be that Catholic Church, in its denial of everything materialistic forbids from the people to understand the spiritual as well? Obviously, through the ages the Catholic Church has been fighting to destroy paganism. Whatever item or habit was considered paganistic, it was immediately sent to eternal damnation. Dreamcatchers, lucky talismans, crystals, stones, etc. That is, all the items with which a person could channel thoughts and energy, coult concentrate and come in touch with the spiritual essence.

Interestingly, the Orthodox Church has come up with a plan that I consider incredibly smart and innovative. It endorses icons. Small or bigger, in this or the other shape, in fridge or car magnets, in post cards, in every possible merchandisable item, anyone can have something to prey or concentrate or meditate. Plus, that the Orthodox Church has made sure to "assign" a protector-saint for every possible group of people existing. E.g., Saint Nikolas in Orthodox church is the protector of sailors. Saint Michael is the protector of airmen. It goes so far, as to have protector saint for the inspiration of...artists, football players, etc. Also, if a professional discovers that his field lacks a protector-saint, he can apply and request for the Church to consider "assigning" one...

Too much? Sounds too much of a heresy? It's just a smart way to compromise between the "pagan" ways to picture and grasp the divine, and the Church's way

Edited December 11, 2004 by Asterix

[aquatus1]

Honestly? I think if the church wants to survive the coming millenia, it will have to change to fit our needs. The time when we had to change for it is long past.

[Q-La]

Being a very visual person, I totally agree with the need of symbolism for the spiritual, especially when everything is competitively visual to convey ideas. I actually talked to a young priest about this many years ago and the idea wasn't well received. IMO the catholic church is quite bad in marketing and making nice presentations, whcih I do not quite understand, when compared to other christian denominations. I remember seeing a Tv program in which a young church leader (I think its anglican) was entrusted with the freedom to use various media (large format projection of abstract graphics, contemporary music, etc.) during the mass, which did attract of young people. The project was sadly ended because there were sexual scandals because the young were probably became too casual and the priest was involved in 'exploring intimacy' with female members. I think the question is how do we translate the super heavyweight baroque vatican symbolism to modernize aesthetics while without being caught up in a disposable culture(maybe respect /power for some), even for symbols.

edit:oh, on the architectural side, things are getting better

http://www.archpedia.com/Projects-Richard-Meier_01.html

Love Meier's works!

Edited December 11, 2004 by Q-La

[Grandpa Greenman]

The christian church started out people went directly to god and there was no bible or priests. As kings and people of power started to get involved they couldn't have that. They had to have control of the people as they do now. So they gathered together the writings that were being past around. They put them together and that was the bible. After a while they decided to cut it down and take out anything that infringed opon their power and burned it. After that Martin Luther decided the church had be come corrupt and was right. Power corrupts no getting away from that. So he changed the bible. From there, there was more spliting and now you have lot of christian churchs that all say they are right and they all want power and control. If the church in general wants to servive it needs to dump the controling infuences of power and corruption and get back to going directly to your god for answers.

By all the thousand names of the Lord and Lady, Blessed Be.

Darkwind

Edited December 11, 2004 by Darkwind

[saucy]

The Catholic church is a failure because they are a pagan religion. First of all, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Evidence in the bible supports that He wasn't. Dec. 25th was originally a pagan holiday worshipping the Roman god of the sun and it was a very popular holiday. The Catholics set up Christmas to be as a rival to this holiday. That's it. They also like to worship idols. The virgin Mary and the various other saints. My friend's girlfriend worships saint Elizabeth. Who the hell is saint Elizabeth? There is a story in the bible where Paul is in heaven (Book of Revelations) and he bows before an angel and the angel tells him to get up that ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP! Not angels, not saints, not disciples, only God. The Catholics also like to put pressure on themselves. No sex at all. Where in the bible does it say ANYONE has to abstain from sex? Nowhere. They're all about money and power and find themselves in sexual sin and the bible even describes the catholic church as the church that the false prophet in the end times will rule from. There are a lot of problems with the catholic church.

[Hotoke]

Honestly?  I think if the church wants to survive the coming millenia, it will have to change to fit our needs.  The time when we had to change for it is long past.

398409[/snapback]

i can see that. rapping priests. nuns with miniskirts. popes with a gangster image

[pagan_jedi_girl]

I'd love to see that!!

[The Raven]

I visited today an interesting expo, with lots of Christmas stuff and not only. From the traditional lights and trees and ornaments to other nice items like traditional indian dreamcatchers and traditional finnish woodcrafts for christmas. I bought a very beautiful dreamcatcher, with which indians used to chase the bad dreams away. Because of this, an interesting chain of thoughts came to my mind, which I'm about to share.. 

Could it be that one of the most important reasons for the failure of the Catholic Church  is the fact that it lacks comprehension of how the average person can picture and materialize the essence of the divine? Could it be that Catholic Church, in its denial of everything materialistic forbids from the people to understand the spiritual as well? Obviously, through the ages the Catholic Church has been fighting to destroy paganism. Whatever item or habit was considered paganistic, it was immediately sent to eternal damnation. Dreamcatchers, lucky talismans, crystals, stones, etc. That is, all the items with which a person could channel thoughts and energy, coult concentrate and come in touch with the spiritual essence. 

Interestingly, the Orthodox Church has come up with a plan that I consider incredibly smart and innovative. It endorses icons. Small or bigger, in this or the other shape, in fridge or car magnets, in post cards, in every possible merchandisable item, anyone can have something to prey or concentrate or meditate. Plus, that the Orthodox Church has made sure to "assign" a protector-saint for every possible group of people existing. E.g., Saint Nikolas in Orthodox church is the protector of sailors. Saint Michael is the protector of airmen. It goes so far, as to have protector saint for the inspiration of...artists, football players, etc. Also, if a professional discovers that his field lacks a protector-saint, he can apply and request for the Church to consider "assigning" one...

Too much? Sounds too much of a heresy? It's just a smart way to compromise between the "pagan" ways to picture and grasp the divine, and the Church's way

398388[/snapback]

It seems as though the good portion of the church is infact entirely corrupt. The Vatican is now a failed, bloody attempt to have everyone conform and abolish everything tied in with their roots. The original ideas were obviously twisted and now leads many worshippers.

Life has never been easy, but it seems as though all these stressors and crusades to conform never existed before the church appeared. People could believe whatever they really wanted. It makes you wonder how peaceful the world could be today if the corruption was washed away, and maybe forms of paganism were the dominant religions on the planet, if such strict regulations, rules, and absurd laws had not been put in place, and if people had an open mind and accepted, respected, and cherished difference. Respect hardly exists in this world anymore, and that is why there is a most fitting quote. "This world is lost" I find it peaceful to study, learn, respect, and sometimes even practice other beliefs, they are just so much more peaceful and respectful than the trend today.

Edited December 12, 2004 by The Raven

[Q-La]

... They also like to worship idols.  The virgin Mary and the various other saints.  My friend's girlfriend worships saint Elizabeth.  Who the hell is saint Elizabeth?  There is a story in the bible where Paul is in heaven (Book of Revelations) and he bows before an angel and the angel tells him to get up that ONLY GOD IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP!  Not angels, not saints, not disciples, only God.  ...

398836[/snapback]

Just to cut things short, catholics don't worship saints, it's called communion. It's like talking to a relative that has gone to the other side. If a catholic is worshipping a saint, it is againtst catholic teachings.

The Relvelation is believed to be written by John the apostle, during his exile on an island(Patmos?).

[hyuugaNeji]

Just to cut things short, catholics don't worship saints, it's called communion. It's like talking to a relative that has gone to the other side. If a catholic is worshipping a saint, it is againtst catholic teachings.

oh really......then explain to me why catholics confess to the virgin mary. and for communion how can they talk to the dead.

[Q-La]

Confession are made to the priests, not Mary. As for 'talking' to the departed, if you do not believe in prayer then it does not apply to you.

[Erikl]

Asterix, I thought Catholicism does have lots of icons, in compare of number of protestant sects (Lutherans, Anglican etc.) who ban all images.

I mean - Catholics have a statue of their version of Jesus in every church, they embrace to the cross as if it was a divine object. They eat bread and drink blood and think it's the flesh and blood of their God.

You picked the wrong Christian sect to criticise over not using enough paganist icons .

And still, I find the Catholic Church to be very successful - it is still the largest Christian sect.

Also, Judaism and Islam, both ban any worship or sacred use of objects or images, are very successful (Judaism survived for at least 3,300 years even though it was under huge pressure from outside, and today millions follow Judaism; Islam is the fastest growing religion today - more than 1.2 billion people follow this religion).

Edited December 12, 2004 by Erikl

[saucy]

Catholics do pray to the various saints, and that is worshipping them. Who gives priests and such the right to forgive mankind of their sins? What is all this confession crap I've been hearing about? God and God alone forgives man of sins.

[SilverCougar]

if you look at it that way, then all of christianity is pagan. I mean, they worship God... and Jesus... and a holy spirit.

Saying Jesus is the same as god, is kindda off.. since he his a seperate entity, and a "son of" which makes him seperate...

[witch~hunter]

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are seperate, yet one. I don't know why human beings have such a problem grasping this concept. Consider the atom. Proton, neutron, and electron, three seperate things, yet one. It is said that failure to believe in the Oneness of the Trinity will keep many supposed Christians out of heaven. It's one of the "markers" that sets mainstream Christian denominations apart from cults.

[Erikl]

I am sorry, but protons, neutrons and most certainly electrons are NOT ONE (that's a no no in quantum physics ).

If there are seperated prayers to God, to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit, then they are three seperated entities.

Indeed the entire family is one pantheon of godly entities, just like the Greco-Roman pantheon was, and like the Canaanite pantheon was.

[witch~hunter]

It's not a "no no" (your words) at all. Atoms routinely lose or gain electrons, often through manmade processes. Man kind has also proved the atom can be split, however they are still considered one while part of an atom. I only used the atom because it's a common picture. Next time I'll use the banana split

[Insight]

Man, the catholic church's biggest failure is everything. They are a backwards cult that mourns their faith. They take a religion, twist it around so instead of worshipping God, they worship a human female. Sounds odd. Why pray to some dead person who was close to God, instead of praying to God himself? Do they read the Bible? If so, why do they confess before a priest, when the teaching declares we are to confess before GOD, and not MAN.

And thank you, thank you darkwind for this incredible quote:

If the church in general wants to servive it needs to dump the controling infuences of power and corruption and get back to going directly to your god for answers.

[Erikl]

Witch~hunter, you proved my point.

The just like sub-atomic particles make an atom, so do God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit produce a pantheon of godly entities that people worship.

For example, a heathen Greek could have worshiped Zeus and Hera, but still worship one and single pantheon.

Obviously, the heathen Greeks didn't presume to worship one god.

[Asterix]

Man, the catholic church's biggest failure is everything. They are a backwards cult that mourns their faith. ..[...]

And thank you, thank you darkwind for this incredible quote:

If the church in general wants to servive it needs to dump the controling infuences of power and corruption and get back to going directly to your god for answers.

401484[/snapback]

But the truth is, that more or less all organised religions do that, up to a degree. The more organised a religion (for example Christianity, Islam, Judaism) the more the distortion of truth. If you would create an organisation for...say, Wicca, then I'm sure that sooner or later the virus of corruption and power-lust would infect there too

[arwenpotter]

haha im with ya Pagan

[SilverCougar]

heathen?? I'd be offended... but I call myself that all the time to.. jokingly ofcourse...

[Stellar]

Man kind has also proved the atom can be split, however they are still considered one while part of an atom. I only used the atom because it's a common picture.

Hmm, well, if you interpret it that way, fine... but thats like saying that a car is the same thing as all its parts. All of its parts, together, form a car, but each part is different.