4012 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

But that flood Konered talks about happened (also) in the North Sea:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW
(,,,)
This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Or should all these placenames be located at the coast of the Baltic?

=

It's the Cimbrian flood and it drove the inhabitants of Denmark to the south, and brought them in contact with the Romans.

Personally I think it happened in the North Sea, not the Baltic, and I know we have talked about this long a go.

++++

EDIT:


De zeventiende eeuwse Friese geschiedschrijver Chr. Schotanus schreef over de Kimbrische vloed;
“Omtrend den jare nae de scheppinghe der werelt 360 ofte 350 voor de geboorte Jesu Christi is door stormen en tempgeesten een schricklijke watervloed over alle zee-custen van Duytsland gelopen, die veel vee ende mensen heeft vernielt.Dit eerste en oudste vloet, daer men gedachtenis af kan hebben, die oock so men meent, alle eylanden, aan de Friessche custen , van’t vaste land afgescheurt en vele binnenwateren ende meeren gemaekt heeft, daer de monden van de rivieren, voorhenen, met enghe gaten in ze uitliepen.

The 17th century Frisian historian Chr. Schotanus wrote this about the Cymbrian Flood:
About the year 360 or 350 before the birth of Jesus Christ a terrible flood, caused by violent storms, hit all the sea coasts of Germany, a flood that destroyed many cattle and people. This first and oldest flood which can be remembered, could also have ripped all the islands on the Frisian coast from the mainland, and have created many inlets and lakes because formerly the mouths of the rivers ended up in them through narrow entrances.

http://www.lutebouwe...tormvloeden.htm

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Right, so you think the Balda Sea translated as Baltic, where Jutlanders and Letlanders flee from, is not the Baltic?

I hardly think so.


Balda could be BOLD sea, not really bad, because bold can mean frightful, dangerous as well, which is what I think 'bad' could mean in the wording of the OLB.
[/i]bold (adj.) O.E. beald (W.Saxon), bald (Anglian) "bold, brave, confident, strong," from P.Gmc. *balthaz (cf. O.H.G. bald "bold, swift," in names such as Archibald, Leopold, Theobald; Goth. balþei "boldness;" O.N. ballr "frightful, dangerous"), perhaps from PIE *bhol-to- suffixed form of *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell" (see bole). Old French and Provençal baut "bold," Italian baldo "bold, daring, fearless" are Germanic loan-words.[/i] http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=bold

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 17 May 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

It was the best move I ever made.

You helped me make that decision end of december, remember?
If you want to escape the big city for a few days, you are welcome.
I have a guest-room.

Yes, I do remember.

Well,thanks,  I will think about it. It's possible I'll have 'to run' soon....

--

Btw: I have the link to the now archived first part of this thread added to my signature for easy reference.

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Right, so you think the Balda Sea translated as Baltic, where Jutlanders and Letlanders flee from, is not the Baltic?

I hardly think so.


Balda could be BOLD sea, not really bad, because bold can mean frightful, dangerous as well, which is what I think 'bad' could mean in the wording of the OLB.
[/i]bold (adj.) O.E. beald (W.Saxon), bald (Anglian) "bold, brave, confident, strong," from P.Gmc. *balthaz (cf. O.H.G. bald "bold, swift," in names such as Archibald, Leopold, Theobald; Goth. balþei "boldness;" O.N. ballr "frightful, dangerous"), perhaps from PIE *bhol-to- suffixed form of *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell" (see bole). Old French and Provençal baut "bold," Italian baldo "bold, daring, fearless" are Germanic loan-words.[/i] http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=bold

No, I think they fled for the storms on the North Sea and the resulting floods on the Danish coast.

The storms, floods (and maybe earthquakes?) that Frethorik described happened in the North Sea area:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW

This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Well, that would have included the sea between Denmark and Norway/Sweden.

Btw: that event also included erupting volcanos. Where are the volcanos in the Baltic area?

The only ones that could have erupted are in Iceland, but I really don't know if they erupted in 306 BC.

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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Abramelin]

Vaderlandsche geographie: of, Nieuwe tegenwoordige staat en hedendaagse historie der Nederlanden, Volume 1,Deel 2 - Willem Albert Bachiene / 1791

page 754

http://books.google....anderen&f=false


That page is about that same flood. What's interesting here is that according to the writer the MIDDELZEE is the sea that connects the North Sea with the Zuiderzee (now IJsselmeer), between West-Friesland (in the province of Noordholland) and the province of Friesland.

So now we have a three "Middle Seas" (OLB: Middel Se)... this one, the former one in the province of Friesland (reclaimed area), and the Mediterranean.

 Zuiderzee2.jpg   153.98K   8 downloads

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

... that tiny village in Friesland.

This 80s commercial was filmed here:

[The Puzzler]

With the flood Abe, it could be both, it obviously affected coastal Northern Germany and Frisia but also was very damaging in the Baltic, where the people fleed from, so I agree it was also in the North Sea but the statement in the OLB referring to the Balda Sea means the Baltic.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Vaderlandsche geographie: of, Nieuwe tegenwoordige staat en hedendaagse historie der Nederlanden, Volume 1,Deel 2 - Willem Albert Bachiene / 1791

page 754

http://books.google....anderen&f=false


That page is about that same flood. What's interesting here is that according to the writer the MIDDELZEE is the sea that connects the North Sea with the Zuiderzee (now IJsselmeer), between West-Friesland (in the province of Noordholland) and the province of Friesland.

So now we have a three "Middle Seas" (OLB: Middel Se)... this one, the former one in the province of Friesland (reclaimed area), and the Mediterranean.

Zuiderzee2.jpg

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So which one is this one? The reclaimed area one?

The Middelzee:
The Middelzee (Dutch for "middle sea"; West Frisian: Middelsee) was the estuary mouth of the River Boorn (West Frisian: Boarn) in the province of Friesland. It ran from as far south as Sneek northward to the Wadden Sea and marked the border between the main Frisian regions of Westergoa and Eastergoa. Other historical names for the Middelzee include Bordine, Bordaa, Borndiep, Boerdiep, and Bordena. Gradually the Middelzee silted up and the lands that were thus formed were called the nije lannen or "new lands". The fertile sea clay bottom is mostly used as meadow land. The border between Eastergoa and Westergoa in the former Middlezee is now drained by the River Zwette (West Frisian: Swette) which runs from Sneek to Ljouwert (Leeuwarden), but which once reached the southern edge of Het Bildt
http://www.ancientsi...District/812832

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[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

So which one is this one? The reclaimed area one?

The Middelzee:
The Middelzee (Dutch for "middle sea"; West Frisian: Middelsee) was the estuary mouth of the River Boorn (West Frisian: Boarn) in the province of Friesland. It ran from as far south as Sneek northward to the Wadden Sea and marked the border between the main Frisian regions of Westergoa and Eastergoa. Other historical names for the Middelzee include Bordine, Bordaa, Borndiep, Boerdiep, and Bordena. Gradually the Middelzee silted up and the lands that were thus formed were called the nije lannen or "new lands". The fertile sea clay bottom is mostly used as meadow land. The border between Eastergoa and Westergoa in the former Middlezee is now drained by the River Zwette (West Frisian: Swette) which runs from Sneek to Ljouwert (Leeuwarden), but which once reached the southern edge of Het Bildt
http://www.ancientsi...District/812832

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Wow! You post with "invisible ink"

With 'this one' I obviously meant the one I descrbed according to that 18th century book, and of which I attached a picture.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

With the flood Abe, it could be both, it obviously affected coastal Northern Germany and Frisia but also was very damaging in the Baltic, where the people fleed from, so I agree it was also in the North Sea but the statement in the OLB referring to the Balda Sea means the Baltic.

I have no problems at all with the Balda Sea being the Baltic Sea.

But the OLB suggests it's called 'bad' or 'angry' (BALDA, see Otharus' posts in part I of this thread) because of what happened in the Baltic.

But DID something happen in the Baltic Sea that caused it to get a new name?

Where are those volcanoes that erupted 306 BC?

Is there proof of massive flooding around the Baltic dating from 306 BC?

I think there is some sort of proof of flood happening around that time here in the Netherlands: it was formerly called the Dunkirk III Transgression (until the scientists dropped that theory, not the floodings).

[Otharus]

The OLB can be read in different ways, depending on one-his pre-assumptions.

We have seen how Alewyn found it hard to accept that the Fryan culture was matriarchal (led by mothers), because he had imagined differently.

Jensma at some point must have gotten the idea that OLB is actually about a 19th century religious conflict, and that much of it was ment to be funny. Many of his footnotes are: "grappig bedoeld" (pun intended).

Example (at page 146 line 12-13; my paraphrased translation):
"Kauch ... Kâp - not totally clear; possibly the (farfetched) joke is in the difference between the German 'kauf' = buy, purchase, deal (Dutch: koop) and Oldfrisian 'kâp' which means the same, and therefore the joke is, that the Chauci derive their name from the Frisian word for 'buy'."

People tend to see the things they want to see, and in extreme cases they even see things that are not there.

I ran into a hallucination or delusional perception (?) from Jensma that I want to point out, just for the record.
(I sometimes use this forum as a notebook, for future reference.)
In general, his transcription is an improvement to the one by Ottema, but in this case he has corrupted a word that was correct.

[page 146, line 17-27]


ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD HWÉR.VR MIN TÁT SKRÉVEN HETH.
WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE
MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED.
BI KÁT HIS GAT DRÉVON HJA IN HJARA KÁNA
MITH ÍSE VPPA THA DÉNE.MARKA FÀST
ÀND THÉR.VP SEND HJA SITTEN BILÉWEN.
THÉR NÉRON NARNE NÉN MÀNNISKA AN.T SJOCHT.
THÉR VMBE HÀVON HJA THÀT LÁND INT.
NÉI HJARA NÔME HÀVON HJA THÀT LAND JUTTAR.LÁND HÉTEN.

Where the text clearly has "INT", Jensma transcribed "IVT", and he translated "gejut" (jutted = beach-combed).

"Daarom hebben zij het land gejut."
(Therefore they jutted/ beach-combed the land.)

In the fragment (see scan) "JUTTAR" is clearly both times spelled with an I-dot (J) and a round U, not a V.

Ottema's transcription and translation were correct:
"Thêrvmbe håvon hja thåt lând int"
"Daarom hebben zij het land in bezit genomen"

Sandbach:
"so they took possession of the land"

INT = geïnd = ingenomen = in bezit genomen; past perfect of verb 'innen' = to take possession of

Edited by Otharus, 17 May 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

But the OLB suggests it's called 'bad' or 'angry' (BALDA, see Otharus' posts in part I of this thread) because of what happened in the Baltic.

I don't think that's what OLB suggests.
It only says "BALDA JEFTA KWÁDE SÉ" = Balda or bad/ evil/ angry sea.
This can mean two things:
The sea was known both as BALDA SÉ and as KWÁDE SÉ, or that BALDA and KWÁDE have the same meaning.

Edited by Otharus, 17 May 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

I have no problems at all with the Balda Sea being the Baltic Sea.

But the OLB suggests it's called 'bad' or 'angry' (BALDA, see Otharus' posts in part I of this thread) because of what happened in the Baltic.

But DID something happen in the Baltic Sea that caused it to get a new name?

Where are those volcanoes that erupted 306 BC?

Is there proof of massive flooding around the Baltic dating from 306 BC?

I think there is some sort of proof of flood happening around that time here in the Netherlands: it was formerly called the Dunkirk III Transgression (until the scientists dropped that theory, not the floodings).

You mean this description for volcanoes?

When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there.

They may be something  else, great lakes that rose from the earth like bubbles then burst out lava type stuff do not sound like volcanoes exactly but some kind of air vent action out of the lakes.

But did something happen? You mean out of the OLB? Because within the OLB I explained it could easily have been seen as a bad sea after the horrendous flooding that made the Jutlanders etc move south.

There was the Cimbrian Flood you mentioned.

The Cymbrian flood (or Cimbrian flood) was a large-scale incursion of the sea in the region of the Jutland peninsula in the period 120 to 114 BC, resulting in a permanent alteration of the coastline with much land lost. This disaster killed many, and sent others living in the area south, in search of new lands. It was one of a number of such conflagrations of nature in northwest Europe during the Roman period, the climate between 300 BC and about 100 AD producing frequent storms and the blowing of sand near the coast

This says around 120 BC but it also says from 300BC their was frequent storms and I'm not sure how accurate within 200 years that dating of the Cimbrian Flood actually is. Strabo thinks the large scale movement of these people c. 120 Cimbrian Flood is nonsense.

Thinking about c. 300BC and all those Celts invading Roman areas, long before 120BC...

How about this reference (to Frisia at least but could mean more area than just that):

The Greek historian Ephoros of Cyme in Asia Minor, writing in the 4th century BC, believed that the Celts came from the islands off the mouth of the Rhine and were "driven from their homes by the frequency of wars and the violent rising of the sea".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

Islands off the Rhine and mention of RISING SEAS (and war). Hmm.

[The Puzzler]

I actually find that reference very interesting, I could start a thread on that - the Celts came from the islands at the mouth of the Rhine did they? That would make them Frisians, since they inhabited the area at the time, Minerva lived there once, Nyhellenia, all that. Because this is the timeframe they started their migrations south, c. 300BC, I find this a very realistic scenario.

R1b (U106) is from what they think is a Proto-Celtic people, which is exactly centred in Frisia. Imo this indicates that it could be the Fryans who were R1b (U106) and also the Proto-CEltic people who were at Hallstatt.

The spread of iron-working led to the development of the Hallstatt culture directly from the Urnfield (ca. 700 to 500 BC). Proto-Celtic, the latest common ancestor of all known Celtic languages, is considered by this school of thought to have been spoken at the time of the late Urnfield or early Hallstatt cultures, in the early 1st millennium BC. The spread of the Celtic languages to Iberia, Ireland and Britain would have occurred during the first half of the 1st millennium BC, the earliest chariot burials in Britain dating to c. 500 BC. Other scholars see Celtic languages as covering Britain and Ireland, and parts of the Continent, long before any evidence of "Celtic" culture is found in archaeology. Over the centuries the language(s) developed into the separate Celtiberian, Goidelic and Brythonic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

The interesting thing with the OLB is the word barn for child, not Germanic/English child/kinder - this to me, has always indicated an earlier than Germanic language - and a different language than Germanic as well - a proto-Celtic language - which from all indications, is what the OLB language might even be. Note 'Celtic language' in Britain before so called Celtic culture - possibly became the Fryans were not Celtic as such until the developments from Central Europe were part of their realm - prior to that, they spoke the language, travelled to Britain and were a Fryan Proto-Celtic people.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Abramelin]

This is what I have linked to a couple of times now, but I will quote the whole episode:


THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW

(,,,)

As a wild horse tosses his mane after he has thrown his rider, so Irtha shook her forests and her mountains.

Rivers flowed over the land; the sea raged; mountains spouted fire to the clouds, and what they vomited forth the clouds flung upon the earth.

At the beginning of the Arnemaand the earth bowed towards the north, and sank down lower and lower.

In the Welvenmaand the low lands of Fryasland were buried under the sea.

The woods in which the images were, were torn up and scattered by the wind.

The following year the frost came in the Hardemaand and laid Fryasland concealed under a sheet of ice.

In Sellemaand there were storms of wind from the north, driving mountains of ice and stones.

When the spring-tides came the earth raised herself up, the ice melted; with the ebb the forests with the images drifted out to sea.

In the Winne, or Minnemaand, every one who dared went home.

I came with a maiden to the citadel Liudgaarde.

How sad it looked there. The forests of the Lindaoorden were almost all gone. Where Liudgaarde used to be was sea. The waves swept over the fortifications. Ice had destroyed the tower, and the houses lay heaped over each other. On the slope of the dyke I found a stone on which the writer had inscribed his name. That was a sign to me. The same thing had happened to other citadels as to ours. In the upper lands they had been destroyed by the earth, in the lower lands by the water. Fryasburgt, at Texland, was the only one found uninjured, but all the land to the north was sunk under the sea, and has never been recovered. At the mouth of the Flymeer, as we were told, thirty salt swamps were found, consisting of the forest and the ground that had been swept away. At Westflyland there were fifty. The canal which had run across the land from Alderga was filled up with sand and destroyed. The seafaring people and other travellers who were at home had saved themselves, their goods, and their relations upon their ships. But the black people at Lydasburgt and Alkmarum had done the same; and as they went south they saved many girls, and as no one came to claim them, they took them for their wives. The people who came back all lived within the lines of the citadel, as outside there was nothing but mud and marsh. The old houses were all smashed together. People bought cattle and sheep from the upper lands, and in the great houses where formerly the maidens were established cloth and felt were made for a livelihood. This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo


And the Cimbrian flood was mentioned by the 17th century Frisian historian Chr. Schotanus; he dated it at 360 or 350 BC.

And yes, I asked if something like the above happened, OUTSIDE the OLB, and in the BALTIC area.


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Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I actually find that reference very interesting, I could start a thread on that - the Celts came from the islands at the mouth of the Rhine did they? That would make them Frisians, since they inhabited the area at the time, Minerva lived there once, Nyhellenia, all that. Because this is the timeframe they started their migrations south, c. 300BC, I find this a very realistic scenario.

Caesar considered (part of) the Belgii (sp??) tribe as Celts, yes, and they lived south of the mouth of the Rhine.

The Frisians were a Germanic tribe.

On the other hand, Celts and Germans lived criss cross all over Northern Europe