11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 20 November 2010 - 05:28 PM, said:

I have been reading all night Prehistoric Heritage again and it has so many images of rock art in it. Lots of them seem to have some things in common, the Mother and the Sun, there is lots of rocks with the picture of a sun on it, heaps with daggers, sleds.

Frya may have been the original Mother Goddess even. She goes to a watch star, so some may have seen her then as a Mother, in the stars, a Goddess. It seems to me the OLB does not say Frya's people have Gods or even Goddesses, but that the priest created Gods and Goddesses out of the real people they encountered, such as Minerva and Wodin.

I think the megalithic structures seem to be more built by people who were practising rites, maybe priestly castes, they said once Druids built Stonehenge and then tossed it out as Druids came way later than Stonehenge, but did they really, were the Druids before they became Druids, priests of a Mother Goddess, who worshipped cows with horns, who knew magic and practised bloody rituals..kept track of the movements of the Heavens and kept everyone in subjugation by these religious practices?


All hard to say really.

The Germanic and Celtic people used the 'year wheel' or Yule Wheel. According to one source (John Morton) the Germanics used a year wheel with six spokes, and the Celtics a year wheel with eight spokes (and this is the one popular with new age pagans).

I can imagine they constructed henges based on these year wheels, and for nothing else than as calendar. And maybe even inspired by the already existing megaliths they encountered, and which were raised by the people who came long before them.

[ An interesting aside: it is now believed that the megalithic period of western Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain, was a very peaceful period, as compared to what happened after it ended.]

Several henges/earthen circles have been found in Germany (and I think also in Poland) that date to around 1500 BC (like the Goseck site in Germany) and of which they say were used as calendars (and as ritual sites)

Even those circles/henges were never mentioned in the OLB, as far as I know. And they must have been constructed while Frya's empire still ruled Europe.

(Btw, the idea that the Druids were responsible for the megalithis structures has already been thrown out of the window a very long time ago. Only some new age people still believe in it).

--

EDIT:

Hmm... it seems I was a bit off with my dating of the Goseck site:

http://www.archaeolo...acts/henge.html


---

The final phase of stone circle construction took place in the early to middle Bronze Age (c.2200–1500 BC) and saw the construction of numerous small circles which, it has been suggested, were built by individual family groups rather than the large numbers that monuments like Avebury would have required.

By 1500 BC stone circle construction had all but ceased. It is thought that changing weather patterns led people away from upland areas and that new religious thinking led to different ways of marking life and death.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Stone_circle

.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 November 2010 - 08:02 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Good stuff Puzz. I'd never heard this argument from an academic pov or any other to be honest. I knew of the Battleaxe culture and some others and Europe was populated by the agricultural PIE culture and the henges as calendar makes perfect sense. Only criticisms is that it may be outdated and the Iberian opinion is back in. I'll try and check but I am open to the alternative. It all rests on on archeology and genetics I guess, language to. It is interestingly not at odds with my suggestion elsewhere of Iberians or afro asiatics who had cthonic deities were the Titans and possibly the Nephilim. Nordish are more like giants I concede in strength but not necessarily height perhaps.

Not sure about Freya as the first Mother Goddess but the large numbers of Venus figurines in the North would lend this idea a lot of support. Thanks muchly I had not come across any of that even Libby and Coon.  

Who gets the bragging rites over megaliths and early advancement of culture is potentially a contentuious issue but I honestly have no preformed agenda. This has been very helpful.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 20 November 2010 - 07:34 PM, said:

The Germanic and Celtic people used the 'year wheel' or Yule Wheel. According to one source (John Morton) the Germanics used a year wheel with six spokes, and the Celtics a year wheel with eight spokes (and this is the one popular with new age pagans).

I can imagine they constructed henges based on these year wheels, and for nothing else than as calendar. And maybe even inspired by the already existing megaliths they encountered, and which were raised by the people who came long before them.

[ An interesting aside: it is now believed that the megalithic period of western Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain, was a very peaceful period, as compared to what happened after it ended.]

Several henges/earthen circles have been found in Germany (and I think also in Poland) that date to around 1500 BC (like the Goseck site in Germany) and of which they say were used as calendars (and as ritual sites)

Even those circles/henges were never mentioned in the OLB, as far as I know. And they must have been constructed while Frya's empire still ruled Europe.

(Btw, the idea that the Druids were responsible for the megalithis structures has already been thrown out of the window a very long time ago. Only some new age people still believe in it).

--

EDIT:

Hmm... it seems I was a bit off with my dating of the Goseck site:

http://www.archaeolo...acts/henge.html


---

The final phase of stone circle construction took place in the early to middle Bronze Age (c.2200–1500 BC) and saw the construction of numerous small circles which, it has been suggested, were built by individual family groups rather than the large numbers that monuments like Avebury would have required.

By 1500 BC stone circle construction had all but ceased. It is thought that changing weather patterns led people away from upland areas and that new religious thinking led to different ways of marking life and death.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Stone_circle

.

I said I knew the idea of the Druids building Stonehenge had been thrown out...you missed my point then, I said it could have been an earlier type of 'Druid' as such, not a Celtic Druid but an earlier for of a mother Goddess priest, who knew the star movements, obviously the ones reckoning time, who else is looking at the stars like these Magi priests?

I read somewhere the Pythagoreans may have something to do with it all, their triangles were used it seems for constructing the actual stone circles, they tell of the story of Phaethon as creating the Milky Way, lots of stuff they know and then this passes down to Plato and other philosophers who learn these ancient Pythagorean ideas.

As you said most of these stone henges were built quite early, many prior to the start of the OLB story and of no relation to the story itself, so I see no reason for them, even if the Fryans knew who built them, to be included in the history being told.

I do think the circles were a kind of calendar, but must have been built by people who were reckoning these times according to the movements of the stars and planets, seasons, however they did it, but what I do think is it has to be a priestly caste doing it, that transferred for however long, to these Magi type priests who claimed to have recorded time from before we know know time existed.

[The Puzzler]

Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?

The Magyar seemed to appear too late to build them, 2100BC..

The Lapps, Finns, who came with these Magyar, who seem to be Saami, have been in the area for a long time too, prior to the beginning of the OLB, they estimate maybe at least 3000BC, we find Saami genes in Berber ones, very early, maybe 7000BC, it seems that possible waves of migrations had taken place into the Northern areas, maybe herding or something, possibly these people already knew the area, the 2100BC (100 years after Atland) arrival, seems one of many from thousands of years prior.

Circa 8000 BC: Wooden construction began on Stonehenge in England
Circa 5400 BC: Possible early date for Carrowmore in Ireland
Circa 5000 BC: Construction on Evora in Portugal.
Circa 4800 BC: Construction on Barnenez in Brittany and Bougon in Poitou
Circa 4000 BC: Construction on Carnac in Brittany, also Lisbon, Portugal, central and southern France, Corsica, England and Wales
Circa 3700 BC: Construction on Knockiveagh in Ireland and others
Circa 3600 BC: Construction on Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester in England, and Ggantija and Mnajdra temples in Malta
Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain, Ireland, France, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, the Mediterranean, Belgium and Germany
Circa 3400 BC: Construction on Newgrange in Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Denmark
Circa 3200 BC: Construction on Hagar Qim and Tarxien in Malta
Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France, the Mediterranean Coast, Spain, Sicily, Belgium, Orkney as well as the first true HENGES (circular earthworks) in Britain
Circa 2800 BC: Climax of the megalithic Funnel-beaker culture in Denmark, and the construction of the henge at Stonehenge.
Circa 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia and Scotland, plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge).
Circa 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia, and Scotland.
Circa 1800 BC: Construction of Giovinazzo in Italy
Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal.
Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose slim, 5' 3", blond haired, well manicured body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.
Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere
http://www.saveyourh...thic_europe.htm

I'll think some more on it.

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 November 2010 - 08:05 AM.

[Otharus]

Alewyn, on 15 November 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

I would herewith like to inform all participants of this forum that I cannot participate any further in this debate.
It came to my notice today that Abramelin is now including a highly offensive and, from a Christian viewpoint, blasphemous slogan with all his postings.
I do not expect people to agree with my religous convictions, but I thought we could at least respect each others right to such convictions.
Abramelin full well knows my religion and this time he has managed to silence me.

Something interesting has happened here which I don't want to let pass uncommented.

- Alewyn assumed that Abe's slogan was ment to offend him personally.
- Alewyn suggests that blasphemers don't respect others' right to whatever convictions.

I believe he was wrong both times, but more interestingly, the OLB issue is all about blasphemy.

Apart from the important question whether the information in the OLB is "just a hoax" or really very old, it's fascinating that the discussion about OLB has always been highly emotional and thus far from neutral.

It seems obvious that representatives of the religious and political establishment of 19th century Friesland felt offended by the OLB and its supposed creators and aimed their arrows at anyone who advocated the authenticity of the OLB.

Public offends, insults and accusations galore.

And in Holland, former Fresia, we just like to make fun of any organised religion and its representatives.

I guess this tendency is deeply rooted 'in our genes'.

Freedom of thought and freedom of speech are some of our highest traditional values.

Overold Freesian FOLK LORE.

Edited by Otharus, 21 November 2010 - 03:10 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 November 2010 - 08:01 AM, said:

Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?

The Magyar seemed to appear too late to build them, 2100BC..

The Lapps, Finns, who came with these Magyar, who seem to be Saami, have been in the area for a long time too, prior to the beginning of the OLB, they estimate maybe at least 3000BC, we find Saami genes in Berber ones, very early, maybe 7000BC, it seems that possible waves of migrations had taken place into the Northern areas, maybe herding or something, possibly these people already knew the area, the 2100BC (100 years after Atland) arrival, seems one of many from thousands of years prior.

Circa 8000 BC: Wooden construction began on Stonehenge in England
Circa 5400 BC: Possible early date for Carrowmore in Ireland
Circa 5000 BC: Construction on Evora in Portugal.
Circa 4800 BC: Construction on Barnenez in Brittany and Bougon in Poitou
Circa 4000 BC: Construction on Carnac in Brittany, also Lisbon, Portugal, central and southern France, Corsica, England and Wales
Circa 3700 BC: Construction on Knockiveagh in Ireland and others
Circa 3600 BC: Construction on Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester in England, and Ggantija and Mnajdra temples in Malta
Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain, Ireland, France, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, the Mediterranean, Belgium and Germany
Circa 3400 BC: Construction on Newgrange in Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Denmark
Circa 3200 BC: Construction on Hagar Qim and Tarxien in Malta
Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France, the Mediterranean Coast, Spain, Sicily, Belgium, Orkney as well as the first true HENGES (circular earthworks) in Britain
Circa 2800 BC: Climax of the megalithic Funnel-beaker culture in Denmark, and the construction of the henge at Stonehenge.
Circa 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia and Scotland, plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge).
Circa 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia, and Scotland.
Circa 1800 BC: Construction of Giovinazzo in Italy
Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal.
Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose slim, 5' 3", blond haired, well manicured body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.
Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere
http://www.saveyourh...thic_europe.htm

I'll think some more on it.

> "Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?"

I think you are confusing me for someone else.. I only said the German tribes used a six spoked Yule wheel, and the Celts used an eight spoked Yule wheel. So yeah, the Frisians (or better, the Inguavones) - a Germanic tribe - must also have had a six spoked Yule wheel. It was Otharus who posted an image of a quite recent example of a Frisian Yule wheel, a few pages back.

And I also said, that based on their Yule wheel, AND inspired by what they encountered of ancient megalithic structures, they MAY have constructed similar henges. It's even possible they - Germanics and/or Celts - borrowed the idea of the Yule wheel from the ancient Europeans they met when they started occupying Europe.

==

About the most famous henge, Stonehenge: it was still in use and being rebuilt a 1000 years after it was constructed, so the Frya people must have known of it. It was located in what was once their socalled 'penal colony', right?

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Stonehenge

[Flashbangwollap]

I guess this tendency is deeply rooted in our genes.

My guess: Connected with old worship (Gods) paganism and our modern sciences trying to understand nature more clearly. Thus bringing about the movement away from monotheism. = Drive to understand ourselves.

[Otharus]

Flashbangwollap, on 21 November 2010 - 03:17 PM, said:

My guess: Connected with old worship (Gods) paganism and our modern sciences trying to understand nature more clearly. Thus bringing about the movement away from monotheism. = Drive to understand ourselves.

Old 'paganist' ancestor worship, or worship of (the spirits of) long passed heroes and heroines (HELDEN), who were, of course...

GOOD = GOD.

('Spirit' = breath => inspiration = breathing in)

Understanding our roots and ancestors, understanding of where we are coming from, as a way of understanding ourselves.

How's that?

Edited by Otharus, 21 November 2010 - 05:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

I have been the one in this thread demanding the believers in the OLB to come forward with some real proof.

Up till now we only got ancient myths (which can be interpreted in any which way you desire) and a lot of wordplay.

Well, I am being accused of having a 'agenda', or just being skeptic for the hell of it.

Great.

I can tell now that I found something that could - in a way - confirm - the claims made by the OLB believers.


"However he is credited with prompting further research into sunken North Sea ports, in this case Rungholt, where underwater excavation has now, reportedly, found ceramics evidencing trade between Frisia and (wait for it) Minoan Crete dating back to 1600-1400 BC. This was of course around the time the Minoan Empire collapsed in the wake of the Thera/Santorini eruption – an event claimed by some classical scholars (and others) as inspiration for Plato’s Atlantis tale. (The new finds are detailed in cultural historian Hans Peter Duerr's 2005 book given as Rungholt: The Search For A Lost City, though it’s not clear if this is actually published in English.) Spanuth’s final work, from 1989, dealing with how the matter of this north-to-south cultural transmission might have worked, does not appear to have been translated. (Die Rückkehr der Herakliden: das Erbe der Atlanter; der Norden als Ursprung der griechischen Kultur - “The Return Of The Heraclides: The Legacy Of The Atlanteans, The North As The Origin Of Greek Culture.”)"

http://codexceltica....ic-odyssey.html


"4. New Find: Bronze Age Crete-North Frisia [Northwest Germany] Connections
Note from "Dirk" in [Germanic-L] Digest Number 1786
<<The most shocking find was Minoic [Minoan] ceramic dated to the 13th and 14th
centuries BC, including characteriistic three-feet pots. This suggests,
according to the article that trade links existed between Crete and
the North Frisian Coast as early as 1400 BC. The finds come from a
Bronze age layer and cannot have been dropped into the site in modern
times. The objects were likely not transported to Rungholt by
intermediate traders over land, but were likely shipped directly from
Crete.>> "

http://britam.org/now/660Now.html

+++

"Some translation of the first part:

So the really exciting findings are lying under the late-medieval Rungholt?
At least the most surprising. Obviously there are several preceding settlements from the 4rth and 3rd century BC. One find did almost upset us: we came upon remains of levantine and especially minoan ceramics for transportation and daily use from Crete, 13th and 14th century BC. Among this, sherds of two tripod coockingpots. That's why we suppose ships traveling already 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of northern Frisia.

Would this be antiqities, transported by a modern ship?
No. Our findings were lying under a bronze-age layer of peat, build up - we suspect - already 1200 BC. Indeed during settlement in the middle ages, most of these turflayers were dug off - but nowhere in places to be used for wharfs and hauses. And exactly at such a place we discovered the antique ceramics! The pots we found, were highly likely not tradewares, finding their way to northern Frisia by commision-agents. The valueless ceramics for daily use did belong with great certainty to the equipment of a ship.

What could have tempted the Minoans from Crete in the North Sea in the 14th century BC?
That was the tin from Cornwall [etcetera]

So, probably a little bit more than one pot.


//

What was found: "transport" and "every-day-usage" (convenience) ceramics from the Levant and, more importantly, Minoan Crete - which would be used and found on a ship, but would normally not be traded long distances over land because of its crude and insignificant appearance. Containers for drinking and eating, lance tips, incense, lapis lazuli (perhaps from Afghanistan?), and a seal with linear-A inscription were among the items.

I think the combination of finds clearly points to a one-time, concentrated "transaction" from a source like a ship.

//

Yes Eurologist, that's almost a translation of especially the first paraghaph of the second part.
Both english and german are not my mothertongue. Reading no problem, but alas, translating too timeconsuming for doing it all.
What i can add now from the articles, is that it wasn't far from the British islands to Frisia, northern coastal areas where amber came from, beloved by the people of Mykene. That it was possible for Minoans very well to navigate the North Sea about 3300 years ago. And that the finds were of almost no value in exchanging goods.
This added, you have the content of the articles as good as complete. "



http://dienekes.blog...in-germany.html


+++++


Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthlande

http://www.calsky.co...ru/rungholt.php

++++++++++

EDIT:

For the ones slow of mind, I will offer help...

Google "Rungholt", "Duerr", and "Minoan",in one go.

The Germans discovered ancient Minoan artifacts at the west coast of Denmark.

Cretan Tripods, ceramic, coins..

Either the ancient Frisians sailed to the Med, and collected stuff and brought it back to Denmark (and lost it)... or the Minoans sailed to Denmark to trade with the Danes,and somehow lost their cargo in Danish waters.

Either way, they were in contact.


I am a skeptical person. That means, doubting what people claim to be true, and nothing else.

I even doubt about my own ideas and convictions.

Can you say the same??

.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 November 2010 - 09:48 PM.

[The Puzzler]

I just got up. I doubt myself every minute of the day. OK, I'll read that again, cause it's early and I have to have my cuppa. It will probably take me half the day to check your post Abe. Sounds interesting.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Either the ancient Frisians sailed to the Med, and collected stuff and brought it back to Denmark (and lost it)... or the Minoans sailed to Denmark to trade with the Danes,and somehow lost their cargo in Danish waters.

A third possibility here Abramelin, is that a Phoenician ship loaded with various wares of the Mediterranean (to include Minoan) sailed to the area of Britain, Denmark and the North Sea and their ship, for whatever reason, was lost.

cormac

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 22 November 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:

A third possibility here Abramelin, is that a Phoenician ship loaded with various wares of the Mediterranean (to include Minoan) sailed to the area of Britain, Denmark and the North Sea and their ship, for whatever reason, was lost.

cormac

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell peoople I consider things.

I am not just out to nail somone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

And how many times I said I wished that the OLB story was true??

Have you read something similar from the believers?

I don't think so.

They just stick to their convictions.

I will never.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 November 2010 - 11:23 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 22 November 2010 - 11:11 PM, said:

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell people I consider things.

I am not just out to nail someone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

Other than various and sundry ways of how it "could" be true, based on the various interpretations of what the OLB actually says, I haven't seen anything here that would suggest such from an archaeological or genetic standpoint, thusfar.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 22 November 2010 - 11:25 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Everyday objects seemingly on the ships from the area of Crete etc...

To me, it's as obvious as the nose on my face that many of the mythical stories and people in them are from the North, I have read before on items of interest from each culture and must go down that road some more later today, amber beads etc.

I don't think we can understand the changes that came to all of Europe with the Roman invasion and then Christianity. Everything they had was lost, both of these invasions of peoples and thought stripped Europe of any heritage it had, hidden away to be forgotten, never acknowledged as the place great cultures emerged from, what sort of ancient Greek would acknowledge they descended from those barbarians?
I recall reading up how horrified science was at discovering the cave art in Europe was so old and many would not accept the dates being given, it was incomprehendible that the barbarian stone age giant pagans who inhabited the area had this kind of artistic skill in them. In fact, it took something like 15 years for it to be accepted at their officialdom event at the time.

Homer and Hesiod imo were from ancient families of Europe, bards of a kind, who knew history and embedded it in a Greek propaganda exercise of the day.

That Ogygia is clearly not situated in the Mediterranean Sea, seems clear. Its vegetation does not conform to the Mediterranean climate. And in Homer’s epics, there are frequent references to fog, even snow, and of how the sun does not seem to set but instead lingers just beyond the horizon, a phenomenon that is typical for summer in the northern regions. In the Odyssey, we read: “Here we can perceive neither where darkness is nor where dawn is/ nor where the Sun shining on men goes down underground / nor where it rises.”

Furthermore, the sea is never described as being bright, but grey and misty. The characters wear tunics and “thick, heavy cloaks” which they never remove, not even during banquets. The sun or its warmth are seldom mentioned in the book, yet are what would immediately come to mind in a Mediterranean setting. Indeed, there is nothing in this geographical description that hints at a Mediterranean setting; even if Homer was not a geographer, he should at least have known what a typical Mediterranean landscape looked like – as he is believed to have lived there. Instead, it seems he lived elsewhere…




Amber - Electra. Danae, a Dane, as was Perseus. Helle, from the real Hellespont, in the Sea of Helle, Phaethon and his amber Heliades, Ixion and phantom cloud goddesses creating centaurs, tied onto Jule wheels for eternity for punishment. Blonde warriors like Achilles, Triton mermaids in Poland on the Vistula. Horses pulling Suns in Denmark...

However it happened and whatever proofs have been lost over time and destruction, it's there to see.


Though Vinci may be right, Piggott is most definitely right: the Achaean warriors used chariots to move across the battlefield, a method of fighting that was unknown in Greece. But similar chariot fighting was described by Julius Caesar when he invaded Britain; what he witnessed, seemed taken word by word from Homer’s accounts. Furthermore, the “great walls” of Troy (never said to be made out of stone) could be identical with the palisades around various megalithic tumuli and Celtic settings. The sweet wine the warriors drink may seem typically Mediterranean at first, but we now know that wine was grown in northern Europe, but that honey was added… making the wine indeed sweet; such an addition was not required for Mediterranean wines, and once again, it seems Homer’s heroes were thus fighting elsewhere. Finally, in Homer’s account, everyone drinks from bronze chalices, which is typical of Celtic customs – and largely absent from Mediterranean cultures.
http://perfidy.org/t...-is-in-finland/



That's why the OLB seems so real to me, because what it's saying seems likely imo, to have happened.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 November 2010 - 11:11 PM, said:

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell peoople I consider things.

I am not just out to nail somone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

And how many times I said I wished that the OLB story was true??

Have you read something similar from the believers?

I don't think so.

They just stick to their convictions.

I will never.

Me neither.

I investigate too. I've proven myself wrong way too many times to want to remember.

Why this subject gets me, is no real desire of any one outcome, but to gather more info on the topic of Greece being inhabited by Northern Europeans, like I've thought it had been for so long. Then it gives some answers to the mythical characters that seem so important but come from nowhere exactly.
I haven't stopped thinking about how influential those priests would have been, I mean controlled the whole show, for thousands of years, we read it, in history, I think we underestimate the power of them and how manipulating they were. People were like puppets, dumb puppets, the OLB keeps ramming this home and I see it more and more clearly every day as to how it would have been.

I'm going hunting for some artifacts now, maybe Mycenaean bronze weapons, beads etc and what sort of trade and items can be found in that area, if anyone has any good links.