The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

[Alara]

I'm assuming that this topic was already discussed in this forum. I'm a new member, though I've been reading through the posts on this forum for quite a long time so if this is an old, overly discussed topic, just give me the link to it (the earlier discussion).

I do not mean to offend anyone nor do I mean disrespect. I was raised Christian though my beliefs are quite different now.

I would like to know your perspective on the opinions posted on the Skeptic's Annotated Bible web site and maybe we could discuss it a little.

Thanx!

Edited December 19, 2006 by Lottie
Edited title.

[Something Like Laughter]

It whines way too much.

[Spurious George]

Well I just took a quick peek, being me of course I went straight for Isaiah 14:12 to see what it had to say about Lucifer...

"Lucifer, son of the morning

This is the only verse in the bible that mentions Lucifer. Although most Christians consider Lucifer to be Satan (the devil), there is little biblical justification for doing so. In this verse "Lucifer" refers to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadrezzar?) and Lucifer (the light bearer) is also called the "son of the morning" or morning star. The only other person that is referred to in that way is Jesus (Rev.22:16). Does this mean that Lucifer is Jesus?"

LOL good enough for me!

If I may hijack, do you mind? OK then when Christians finally realize, its been two thousand years I'm not holding my breath, that the 'Satan' Jesus speaks of in the NT is actually Jehovah from the OT is the day I'll stop harassing them. Oh yes blasphemy of course, but when you correct that little error many of those pesky little problems in the Bible are remedied as well, like Satan somehow becoming the God of this Earth, he meant Jehovah you twisted fools lol! Ya thats right the genocidal maniac is actually the bad guy, who'd a thunk it! I know its a stretch the mass murderer is really the bad guy lol.

[GoddessWhispers]

What I wuv about you Elel. is you're subtle.

[+Sherapy]

Well I just took a quick peek, being me of course I went straight for Isaiah 14:12 to see what it had to say about Lucifer...

"Lucifer, son of the morning

This is the only verse in the bible that mentions Lucifer. Although most Christians consider Lucifer to be Satan (the devil), there is little biblical justification for doing so. In this verse "Lucifer" refers to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadrezzar?) and Lucifer (the light bearer) is also called the "son of the morning" or morning star. The only other person that is referred to in that way is Jesus (Rev.22:16). Does this mean that Lucifer is Jesus?"

LOL good enough for me!

If I may hijack, do you mind? OK then when Christians finally realize, its been two thousand years I'm not holding my breath, that the 'Satan' Jesus speaks of in the NT is actually Jehovah from the OT is the day I'll stop harassing them. Oh yes blasphemy of course, but when you correct that little error many of those pesky little problems in the Bible are remedied as well, like Satan somehow becoming the God of this Earth, he meant Jehovah you twisted fools lol! Ya thats right the genocidal maniac is actually the bad guy, who'd a thunk it! I know its a stretch the mass murderer is really the bad guy lol.

Ele what I love about you is your twist and interpretation on things , very enlightening..... Do i see a new bible in the works....( wink wink)

[Spurious George]

Oh stop, sublty is one of my strong points *blushes* lol.

A new Bible hhhmmm sounds interesting... I'd call it 'The Real Bible' just for laughs and the hatemail lol.

But Im not the first to say it Jesus was, in John 8 enjoy....

"Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God. Yet ye have not known him."

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."

...funny what you can find in the Bible, sounds Gnostic to me but in my opinion the Bible contains some Gnostic cut and paste too. A little Pagan, a little Jew and some Gnostic all mixed together to appeal to everyone right? The problem of course was that it didnt appeal to everyone so a little Pagan, Jew and Gnostic persecution was needed to convince them of the truth lol. I guess the Gnostics were a little more stubborn than the rest about it because there arent too many of them left now.

But dont worry everything else in the Bible is true lol.

[Alara]

The quote that you used is simply being sarcastic; but I guess to get a feeling of the page you'd have to read through a lot more than that. Thanks for the input.

[Alara]

Also, I believe that it's gonna take me a while to get to know you people to understand you easier. As some of you have been here a while you already know how the other one "breathes" about certain issues so I apologize for the future misunderstandings in cases I dont get your usual oity toity .

Edit: Elel, you've got a PM.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Alara

[Spurious George]

Good to meet you, that quote I used does bring up some very interesting questions though, I'd say. Questions most believers wont touch with a ten... twenty foot pole lol. It also happens to be one of the central beliefs in the system I have mostly made for myself and partially adopted from another, cause you see when you know its all in your head anyways, enjoy it, get creative, build a system that fits with who you are and better yet who you want to be.

The Lucifer Christos is one of nine luciferi in this system, who the others are is still a secret ssshhhh lol, and is an amalgamation of the Gnostic Jesus, Lucifer the Light-Bearer, the Serpent and Satan. It may sound crazy, I call it eclectic lol, but I promise you that history and even the Bible has supporting evidence for this combo, in a Mythological, Biblical, Archetypal, Secret History sort of way lol. And no the DaVinci Code has nothing to do with it lol, never read the book, watched the movie though, it was ok, really I only liked the peeking through the window illuminatus ritual sex scene lol.

The heroes in this system are the villains and the marginalized in the Bible; the Serpent, Cain, Mary Magdalene, Judas and the Lucifer Christos. The villain is God. I say Lucifer Christos because the Jesus I see in the Bible is the Sabbath-breaking, table-flinging, hanging with sinners and prostitutes, your God is a murderer tongue lashing, wrap your head around this one you fools outsmarting, Gnostic-esque Jesus still slightly visible in the hypocritical Church cut and paste job editted Bible made by plagarists and frauds who tried to destroy all evidence of what came before them but failed in December 1945 hah! And now here we are.

The Gnostic Jesus is waaayyyy cooler than the Biblical sheep-loving Jesus lol, prancing around telling everyone to roll over and get taken advantage of. The Gnostic Jesus doesnt preach about saving you from sin but from you saving yourself from ignorance, he sits in a tree laughing his ass off while his corporeal body is crucified, tells people to pipe down when they are talking nonsense and gives the Magdalene lots of the sweet stuff because sex is Self-empowering.

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris" - 2 Peter 1:19

"For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms." (Eph 6:12)

God is Evil, Man is the Beast. Its all very blasphemous lol.

[brave_new_world]

SATAN:

In the Hebrew Scriptures. Satan is not the name but the title of a fucntionary of the the heavenly council, the Satan. This title may come from an ancient Semitic word meaning, "to obstruct". The main role of Satan seems to be that of an accuser. Possibly due to Persian influence, by the time Christ the Satan was transformed into an arch-demonic figure, also known as Beelzebub. In Judaism, the cheif demonic figure is known as Sammuel, the angel of death, who led his angels in rebellion against the creation of humanity. A similar account is found in the Koran(Qu'ran) where Satan, also known as Ibblis and the mightiest of the angels refused to prostrate himself before Adam, and was expelled from heaven. He was given power to roam the earth to lead astray those who are not true servants of God.

Page 333 book: Mythology myths, legends and fantasy. Consultant Editor Alice Mill

Personally I think all the gospels are decent. Thomas, phillip, john, mark,mathew luke etc. Jesus himself said to one of his disciples "I am not good, god(or father i forgot) is good." The point I am making is that none of us should take the cosmology too far because then we miss the essential important perennial philosophy parts. Jesus(if he existed, if he didnt the symbolism of his spiritual teachings and ethics still holds valid) knew how to deliver the people from the spiritual darkness they were in. He was a guru. There have been countless before him and there has and will be countless after him. Jesus= Guru, Father=God, holy spirit= spiritual grace. Either way if you take the words too serious you'll end up nowhere but if you dont react to the words appropriately you will never be saved(enlightened). Enlightenment or salavation or whatever one wishes to call it is the aim of all sentient beings. Us humans have a great advantage that our frontal lobes give us the ability of higher abstract thinking, and free will so to speak. So we can choose consciously to apply abstract metaphyics so as to transcend our identification of our ego and get back to where we have always potentially been anyway(enlightened).

Edited December 19, 2006 by brave_new_world

[Spurious George]

SATAN:

In Judaism, the cheif demonic figure is known as Sammuel, the angel of death

The Gnostics called Jehovah(the Demiurge, Ialdabaoth) Samael on occasion....

On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities.

Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."

His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power - that is, the blasphemy he had spoken - he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven"[my add])

[brave_new_world]

The Gnostics called Jehovah(the Demiurge, Ialdabaoth) Samael on occasion....

On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities.

Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."

His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power - that is, the blasphemy he had spoken - he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven"[my add])

Yeah, The God who is one with everything would never need to ever say it was the only god. What would be the point?? Jehovah means "I am that I am" doesn't it?? Unless there are other translations.

[brave_new_world]

Disciple: The Bible teaches us that Man is born in sin.

Ramana Maharshi(Guru): The man is sin. There was no man-sense in deep sleep. The body-thought brings out the idea of sin. The birth of thought is itself sin.

[Cadetak]

If you give the non religious a book that defines their beliefs and ideas...then they cease to be non religious, they are now a religion. Now all you need is a building for them to meet every week.

[Alara]

Hmmm, interesting reading provided here. I think the site (Skeptic's Annotated Bible) raises a lot of questions. I don't think one should mind dissecting his/her own belief system, to touch and feel each of the elements that make it. Was hoping on more references to the site itself.

Oh and, lol, I like the way Elel enjoys being blasphemous. It's almost *naughty*.

[redhen]

Much too wordy, not enough pictures. I prefer this one.

http://www.thebricktestament.com

[Alara]

Lol. Actually, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible site uses the lego pics.

[Caana]

Good to meet you, that quote I used does bring up some very interesting questions though, I'd say. Questions most believers wont touch with a ten... twenty foot pole lol. It also happens to be one of the central beliefs in the system I have mostly made for myself and partially adopted from another, cause you see when you know its all in your head anyways, enjoy it, get creative, build a system that fits with who you are and better yet who you want to be.

The Lucifer Christos is one of nine luciferi in this system, who the others are is still a secret ssshhhh lol, and is an amalgamation of the Gnostic Jesus, Lucifer the Light-Bearer, the Serpent and Satan. It may sound crazy, I call it eclectic lol, but I promise you that history and even the Bible has supporting evidence for this combo, in a Mythological, Biblical, Archetypal, Secret History sort of way lol. And no the DaVinci Code has nothing to do with it lol, never read the book, watched the movie though, it was ok, really I only liked the peeking through the window illuminatus ritual sex scene lol.

The heroes in this system are the villains and the marginalized in the Bible; the Serpent, Cain, Mary Magdalene, Judas and the Lucifer Christos. The villain is God. I say Lucifer Christos because the Jesus I see in the Bible is the Sabbath-breaking, table-flinging, hanging with sinners and prostitutes, your God is a murderer tongue lashing, wrap your head around this one you fools outsmarting, Gnostic-esque Jesus still slightly visible in the hypocritical Church cut and paste job editted Bible made by plagarists and frauds who tried to destroy all evidence of what came before them but failed in December 1945 hah! And now here we are.

The Gnostic Jesus is waaayyyy cooler than the Biblical sheep-loving Jesus lol, prancing around telling everyone to roll over and get taken advantage of. The Gnostic Jesus doesnt preach about saving you from sin but from you saving yourself from ignorance, he sits in a tree laughing his ass off while his corporeal body is crucified, tells people to pipe down when they are talking nonsense and gives the Magdalene lots of the sweet stuff because sex is Self-empowering.

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris" - 2 Peter 1:19

"For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms." (Eph 6:12)

God is Evil, Man is the Beast. Its all very blasphemous lol.

Your very last line is quite true. The time of the beast is almost over, not beginning.

[seanph]

This is the only verse in the bible that mentions Lucifer. Although most Christians consider Lucifer to be Satan (the devil), there is little biblical justification for doing so. In this verse "Lucifer" refers to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadrezzar?) and Lucifer (the light bearer) is also called the "son of the morning" or morning star. The only other person that is referred to in that way is Jesus (Rev.22:16). Does this mean that Lucifer is Jesus?"

I enjoy the SAB. Some decent information. Always research for yourself to make sure the information is correct--as in the description of Lucifer.

Quite true! Lucifer is not Satan or an angel. In fact, this term is used only once in the OT.

John J. Robinson A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and--ironically--the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."

Kindly,

Sean