80 replies to this topic

[ninjadude]

Bama13, on 03 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So do most of the people in Italy or Spain believe in evolution? Since there are a majority of Catholics in those countries

yes they do. Their religion doesn't enter into it.

[questionmark]

ninjadude, on 03 October 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

yes they do. Their religion doesn't enter into it.

That is because the Catholic church had its Galileo, the evangelicals are still looking forward to that embarrassment  

[Br Cornelius]

There is a deistic position which most people now follow. it accepts that the mechanism's of life are evolution, as described by science - but because God partakes in everything he ultimately is responsible for evolution. I personally don't buy it at this stage (though I am still agnostic on the matter), but it is a position which allows most mainstream Christians to accept the theory of evolution lock stock and barrel.

Br Cornelius

[ninjadude]

Well except apparently those in the US, which have proven their ignorance time and again.

[Bama13]

ninjadude, on 03 October 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

Well except apparently those in the US, which have proven their ignorance time and again.

Well except that the US does not lead all countries in the percentage of people believing in creationism.

% of people that believe in evolution:

Sweden 68%
Germany 65%
China 64%
Mexico 34%
US 28%
Russia 26%
Saudi Arabia 23%

So even by HuttonEtAl's definition of ignorance the US is not last.

I also found these:

% that believe in creationism

Saudi Arabia 75%
Turkey 60%
Indonesia 57%
Brazil 47%
US 40%
Russia 34%

Once again the US is not last (or first in this case).

HuttonEtAl's claim is refuted and shown to be false, even by his measuring critera, which is ridiculous in the first place.

I shoot, I score!

[questionmark]

Bama13, on 03 October 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well except that the US does not lead all countries in the percentage of people believing in creationism.

% of people that believe in evolution:

Sweden 68%
Germany 65%
China 64%
Mexico 34%
US 28%
Russia 26%
Saudi Arabia 23%

So even by HuttonEtAl's definition of ignorance the US is not last.

I also found these:

% that believe in creationism

Saudi Arabia 75%
Turkey 60%
Indonesia 57%
Brazil 47%
US 40%
Russia 34%

Once again the US is not last (or first in this case).

HuttonEtAl's claim is refuted and shown to be false, even by his measuring critera, which is ridiculous in the first place.

I shoot, I score!

Might be, but I hardly would take pride in being slightly ahead of Saudi Arabia, a place where culture is still rewarded by throwing rocks at it.

[Myles]

questionmark, on 03 October 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Might be, but I hardly would take pride in being slightly ahead of Saudi Arabia, a place where culture is still rewarded by throwing rocks at it.

I don't think anyone is taking pride in it.   Just proving that hutton was posting inaccurate information.
I take pride in many things about my country.    The education system at the ground level is not one of them (University - yes, public elementary - no).  2 party political system - No.  Space program - yes.   Innovation - yes.  The vast number of churches - yes.  I say yes to the churches because most do not teach creationism anymore.   They stay away from it.   Most churches are filled with very kind-hearted people who would help you out in a second if a tornado took your roof.  I don't believe in all they believe in, but I am very happy to have them as friends.

[Gummug]

For anyone who is interested, I thought that this was really interesting:

edited because I put in the wrong video, sorry!

Edited by Gummug, 03 October 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Gummug]

And then there's this also (sorry I had the wrong video posted for a bit):

Edited by Gummug, 03 October 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[FurthurBB]

preacherman76, on 03 October 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well thats really the saddest part about the whole thing. Guys, some who were top in thier field, instantly became garbage to the scientific community soon as they expressed doubt in parts evolution. You cant find much on these men. They have been black balled into completion. The smear attacks are relentless. Personaly I think there are probably alot more scientists who have doubt, but consider working more important then sharing those beliefs. There is no room to even debate the subject. These men were never even given a stage for 5 mins to express why they believe what they believe. They were instantly labled crazy and swept under the rug. I could give you names. Names with a long list of acomplishments. Then you in turn will dig up insane amounts of dirt of them from men who just cant conceive being questioned regarding thier beliefs.

This is just a fantasy.  No one attacks anyone with a different idea in science, that is what science is all about.  The problem with creationists is the constant lies.

[FurthurBB]

Bama13, on 03 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So do most of the people in Italy or Spain believe in evolution? Since there are a majority of Catholics in those countries I wonder if the majority believe in evolution or creationism? If the majority believe in creationism wouldn't they be just as ignorant, according to your definition?

You know I looked at a lot of definitions of "ignorance" and not one had your critera of believing creationism over evolution as proof of ignorance.

So I will just say that my new definition of ignorance is anyone that uses "EtAl" in their screen name.

Catholics usually accept evolution.

[FurthurBB]

preacherman76, on 03 October 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Irreducable complexity goes into far more detail then what you have explained here. Bacterial flegellum is a great example. I watched a entire documentary on the subject that went into great detail on why it could have never been anything less then it is. Broke down each part, its function, and why it exists, and why it couldnt have been any less then what it is. If all you know regarding this is a conversation your professor had (which no offense, but I find very hard to believe, not saying you are lieing about it, but I think your proffessor did) its no wonder you dismiss it so easily.

You dont have to PM me. Ive had these conversations a hundred times. Neither of us is going to change the others mind. And being we are totaly off topic, and in the wrong section to even be having this conversation, Im going to save this for another time and place.

Bacterial flagellum is the worst example since the parts exist in many different forms, so it is many other things else.

[DieChecker]

Personnally I don't think "unreducable complexity" or whatever it is called Prooves Creationism. If anything it simply cuts back on our understanding of how evolution happens. Proof of Creationism would require direct and recorded data collected from a verified Deity. Only God can proove Creationism.

Edited by DieChecker, 04 October 2012 - 03:41 AM.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Bama13, on 03 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So do most of the people in Italy or Spain believe in evolution? Since there are a majority of Catholics in those countries I wonder if the majority believe in evolution or creationism? If the majority believe in creationism wouldn't they be just as ignorant, according to your definition?

You know I looked at a lot of definitions of "ignorance" and not one had your critera of believing creationism over evolution as proof of ignorance.

So I will just say that my new definition of ignorance is anyone that uses "EtAl" in their screen name.

Looks like your question was answered...The Catholic Church accepts evolution as scientific fact.

preacherman76, on 03 October 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Irreducable complexity goes into far more detail then what you have explained here. Bacterial flegellum is a great example. I watched a entire documentary on the subject that went into great detail on why it could have never been anything less then it is. Broke down each part, its function, and why it exists, and why it couldnt have been any less then what it is. If all you know regarding this is a conversation your professor had (which no offense, but I find very hard to believe, not saying you are lieing about it, but I think your proffessor did) its no wonder you dismiss it so easily.

Who was the documentary by? These are things we need to know because I have seen arguments for the opposite. Of course I explained it simply because I am not trying to write a book in this thread.


Because no one takes the time to click on the damn links in my sig, I will explain it here. I am a Religious Studies major, a History major, an Education major, and a Jewish Studies minor. The main area of my study is the evolution-ceationism controversy (because it covers all of my areas and I am going into teaching.) I have taken many classes that cover these issues, not just had a few convos with professors. Here are some of the classes I have taken related to this topic...
Biology (BIOL)
The Evolution and Biology of Sex (BIOL)
Scientific Reasoning (PHIL)
Religion and Ethics in Educational Policy (EDU)
The Darwinian Revolution (HSCI)
Understanding the Evolution-Creationism Controversy (BIOL)
Currently taking Philosophy of Biology (PHIL)
and will be taking Darwin and Design (PHIL)
Philosophy of Religion (PHIL)

I have had classes in a number of different departments, with a number of different professors that have very different beliefs. The professor that got me into the topic was my Religion and Ethics in Educational Policy teacher, Professor Osburn. He is an Evangelical Protestant...we are good friends to this day. Randy Moore a biology professor has written a number of books on the topic and is a great scholar in the area. Alan Love, the professor for the PHIL classes (except PHIL of religion) has a BS in Biology (with a minor in philosophy from MIT,) a MA in Biology, and a Ph.D. in Philosophy. The other PHIL professor is an existentialist, and creationist, with a Ph.D. from Harvard in Philosophy. I also have a whole stack of books and DVDs about this topic...What I am saying is this is not some crap that I quickly Googled...

Bama13, on 03 October 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well except that the US does not lead all countries in the percentage of people believing in creationism.

% of people that believe in evolution:

Sweden 68%
Germany 65%
China 64%
Mexico 34%
US 28%
Russia 26%
Saudi Arabia 23%

So even by HuttonEtAl's definition of ignorance the US is not last.

I also found these:

% that believe in creationism

Saudi Arabia 75%
Turkey 60%
Indonesia 57%
Brazil 47%
US 40%
Russia 34%

Once again the US is not last (or first in this case).

HuttonEtAl's claim is refuted and shown to be false, even by his measuring critera, which is ridiculous in the first place.

I shoot, I score!

If you are going to refute me and show me to be false, please read what I say...

HuttonEtAl, on 29 September 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Valid point but I think Americans are a lot more ignorant than most of the West. Don't believe me...look at the numbers of how many people in America do not believe in evolution...

Since you had to Google "ignorance" to figure out the meaning, I suggest you also Google the word "most" and also what people consider the "West."

So let me get this straight...Your argument against me is that 28% of Americans believe in evolution and 40% believe in creationism? That is kind of the point I am making...Apparently our biggest rivals in ignorance are Russia and Saudi Arabia...the home of the greatest of the world's scholars...

Thanks for that poll though...you supported my statement 100% Not a single country that is listed, that supports your argument is in the West...

Here are some things you might find interesting...
http://rankingameric...e-of-evolution/

"According to a 2006 study first published in the magazine, Science, the United States ranks thirty-third out of thirty four nations (32 in Europe plus Japan and the United States) in acceptance of evolution. Iceland ranks first. Only Turkey ranked lower than the United States in the acceptance of evolution."

In addition to that the US is ranked 23 in the world in science according to multiple articles.
http://www.timesfree...n-math-science/

Here is one. So who are the 23 countries better than the US at science? Why are we so bad at science? I wonder if it has anything to do with the acceptance of evolution...

Edited by HuttonEtAl, 04 October 2012 - 06:43 AM.

[Render]

Bama13, on 02 October 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

So because some people belive one theory (evolution) while others believe a different theory (creationism) America is the most ignorant? Since neither are proven, hence the word "Theory of Evolution" and "Theory of Creationism", how do you know who is right. Only by the Theory you choose to believe.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are ignorant. Your hubris knows no bounds.

repost from another thread where the same misconception arose;

Render, on 07 September 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Ah, the ever so popular faux-argument of "It still is just a theory". It expresses no more than a lack of insight in what a scientific theory trully means. Of course the theory of evolution, like the theory of relativity is in a way, just a theory. But for ppl from your background this automatically entails that this is no more than an unproved belief, which can be replaced by any alternative "theory" out there. Like the theory of genesis. But these two meanings of theories are being unjustifiably equated.
A scientific theory is more than just a presumption. If it holds truth it explains a series of facts, coherently and is also entwined with several other theories from other scientific fields. For example: theory of evolution is linked to chemistry, paleontology, geology and many more fields. If the theory of evolution would be so wrong, like you claim, then all these other fields have to be wrong too. Which is not the case.

Of course there are still unsolved things in science. But instead as taking that as proof that everything must be wrong, science does whatever it can to fill in the blanks.

Your pseudo-scientific view focusses on an isolated presumption and takes that as evidence that the entire theory is flawed. Which proves a severe misunderstanding of scientific theories as a whole.