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Trojans were Basques?


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#571    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 September 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

This would appear to be incorrect.

http://realhistoryww...by_location.htm

cormac
OK, I'll check it out.

In the Neolithic column, not Copper Age nor the first set of columns, I see: F, G2a3 and F - F being an ancestor of G (as far as I know).

I see what you mean, there is nothing in the columns for the Spain mention..? Hmm. Maybe Wiki meant Germany, joking, will see what I can pull up for Spain, you know of any G in Spain then?

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 02:09 AM.

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#572    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

So you think this is wrong?

The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals.
No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Maybe they have not put it on the charts you linked me to.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 02:18 AM.

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#573    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

OK, I'll check it out.

In the Neolithic column, not Copper Age nor the first set of columns, I see: F, G2a3 and F - F being an ancestor of G (as far as I know).

I see what you mean, there is nothing in the columns for the Spain mention..? Hmm. Maybe Wiki meant Germany, joking, will see what I can pull up for Spain, you know of any G in Spain then?

Not offhand I don't. And with the parent group G and subgroup G2a1a originating in the Caucasus area c.30,000 BP and 3000 BP respectively I wouldn't expect any significant showing of G2 in Spain even if some humans of that group migrated there.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#574    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:37 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

So you think this is wrong?

The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals.

No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Maybe they have not put it on the charts you linked me to.

No this is not wrong, but remember I've warned you many, MANY times about using Wikipedia as a good source for genetics information. This part from your previous post should be trashed IMO:

Quote

Furthermore, the majority of all the male skeletons from the European Neolithic period have so far yielded Y-DNA belonging to this haplogroup.

As you can see for yourself, this is NOT true.

As to G2a and E1b1b1a1b, it's not unexpected that we'd find some hint of their being in Spain since alot of migration was happening from c.7000 BP with the influx of peoples through Anatolia as well as the Indo-European language spread.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 27 September 2012 - 02:41 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#575    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:39 AM

I think their is evidence for Neolithic G2a in Spain. It might be from Caucasus to Spain, which is contrary to my idea, but the connection is there and may give me more understanding why I'm seeing the word connections etc.

G2a is common in modern populations of Caucasus (10) but is quite rare in current western European populations. It represents only approximately 4% of the haplogroups found in the Spanish population (22). It seems nevertheless much more common in Neolithic samples because it was previously found in ancient Neolithic samples from the linear pottery culture in Germany, as well as in late Neolithic French samples (2, 6). Thus, it represents one of the main Y-haplogroups found in Neolithic individuals. Of course, there are still too few data to confirm the overrepresentation of the G2a haplogroup among western Neolithic populations, but this G2a in early Spanish Neolithic samples is strong evidence of a link previously suggested between Neolithic migration and G2a dispersion in Europe (6). Additional G2a haplotypes will, however, be needed to determine whether the G2a found in the male individual associated with dispersal of Neolithic in central Europe and those linked with the Mediterranean route shared a same Neolithic Middle Eastern origin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Yeah on Wiki, should have checked but the G2a seems right to me on checking - the majority in the Neolithic might be G2a, with F and E1b.etc coming in next.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 02:44 AM.

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#576    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:47 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

I think their is evidence for Neolithic G2a in Spain. It might be from Caucasus to Spain, which is contrary to my idea, but the connection is there and may give me more understanding why I'm seeing the word connections etc.

G2a is common in modern populations of Caucasus (10) but is quite rare in current western European populations. It represents only approximately 4% of the haplogroups found in the Spanish population (22). It seems nevertheless much more common in Neolithic samples because it was previously found in ancient Neolithic samples from the linear pottery culture in Germany, as well as in late Neolithic French samples (2, 6). Thus, it represents one of the main Y-haplogroups found in Neolithic individuals. Of course, there are still too few data to confirm the overrepresentation of the G2a haplogroup among western Neolithic populations, but this G2a in early Spanish Neolithic samples is strong evidence of a link previously suggested between Neolithic migration and G2a dispersion in Europe (6). Additional G2a haplotypes will, however, be needed to determine whether the G2a found in the male individual associated with dispersal of Neolithic in central Europe and those linked with the Mediterranean route shared a same Neolithic Middle Eastern origin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Yeah on Wiki, should have checked but the G2a seems right to me on checking.

Your link suggests as much and thank you for it. Somehow this article slipped past me. In any case, this shouldn't be seen as any G2 group originating in Spain (which I know is not what you're saying), but that migrating groups that included members of same made their way into Spain. I realize you've let your thread become co-opted by GGG Guy, but this isn't going to help him in any way if that's what you're thinking.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#577    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:50 AM

G2a1a could be a back migration from the Neolithic G2a people who were in Spain?

I know you want to say no but consider it - if a predominance of this haplogroup is in Western Europe, and got there from Caucasus, either some other G2a people, who were still in the Caucasus are the parent of the G2a1a or the group of G2a who backtracked becoming G2a1a by the time of 3000BP/1000BC are...any opinion?

No, GGG has his own agenda and he's free to post here but I just got back on track with this original idea of the thread myself and wanted to renew some debate and discussion on it. Thanks for joiniing in, I really like learning about the genetic lines.

Just some spell edits.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 02:57 AM.

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#578    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 03:06 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

G2a1a could be a back migration from the Neolithic G2a people who were in Spain?

I know you want to say no but consider it - if a predominance of this haplogroup is in Western Europe, and got there from Caucasus, either some other G2a people, who were still in the Caucasus are the parent of the G2a1a or the group of G2a who backtracked becoming G2a1a by the time of 3000BP/1000BC are...any opinion?

No, GGG has his own agenda and he's free to post here but I just got back on track with this original idea of the thread myself and wanted to renew some debate and discussion on it. Thanks for joiniing in, I really like learning about the genetic lines.

Just some spell edits.

Two problems with that:

1)  There's currently no evidence to show, with any specificity, the origin location for G2a.

2)  G1, G2a1a, G2a1b*, G2a1c1, G2a1c1a1 and G2b all appear to have originated in Southwest Asia/Caucasus area.

* A descendant group G2a1b2 belongs to Oetzi the Iceman. Interestingly enough his mitochondrial haplogroup is K, which is the same as mine. :yes:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#579    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 03:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 September 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Two problems with that:

1)  There's currently no evidence to show, with any specificity, the origin location for G2a.

2)  G1, G2a1a, G2a1b*, G2a1c1, G2a1c1a1 and G2b all appear to have originated in Southwest Asia/Caucasus area.

* A descendant group G2a1b2 belongs to Oetzi the Iceman. Interestingly enough his mitochondrial haplogroup is K, which is the same as mine. :yes:

cormac

An interesting observation from another forum:

"Very interesting, as from what we can see the neolithic/Bronze age in Western Europe seems to be associated with G2a. So, evidence supporting the idea that the neolithic spread from the NW Caucasus."

No - G2a in the Caucasus is derived, not basal. By looking at the fairly to highly derived states of all these tens of haplogroups in the Caucasus, it should be clear that it was the recipient of many rather different refugees. Tribes/people came, claimed a valley, and literally fiercely defended it for millennia.


Another comment by the same guy, who appears to be somewhat knowledgable on the subject:

Well, that is a bit exaggerated, but they seem to be preoccupied with fancy migration stories and forget that G (at several levels), once in Europe, formed their own large clusters, and some amount of back-migration is to be expected. And of course, their time estimates are way off (a factor of 2-3 at least too young in many cases, IMO). For example, they list G2a4 as 3,000 years, when we know it is at the absolute minimum 5,000 years old, and most G3a3 subgroups as only ~1,000 to a few 1,000 years old, when we know that at the base level it is at least 7,000 years old (Derenburg) - and of course it should have seen the beginning of its explosion in Europe right with LBK.

At any rate, from their compilation, G2* is found both in Europe and Armenia, G2a* basically everywhere where G is found. But only a few, derived sub-groups are Caucasus-specific: e.g., G2a1.

http://dienekes.blog...ayev-et-al.html

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#580    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 03:52 AM

imo G2a could have originated in Northern Spain (c.5000BC) and as it back migrated kept changing, so you get G2a3 and other later variations back through France (at later date than G2a in Spain) to Caucasus - West to East.
The G line could have originally left the Caucasus as late as 7500BC.  (Cinnioglu et al. (2004) suggested the mutation took place only 9,500 years ago)

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 03:54 AM.

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#581    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:38 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

imo G2a could have originated in Northern Spain (c.5000BC) and as it back migrated kept changing, so you get G2a3 and other later variations back through France (at later date than G2a in Spain) to Caucasus - West to East.
The G line could have originally left the Caucasus as late as 7500BC.  (Cinnioglu et al. (2004) suggested the mutation took place only 9,500 years ago)

Cinnioglu et al. (2004) also says:

Quote

Haplogroup G2-P15 is the most frequent (9%) G sub-clade in Turkey. G2-P15 lineages have been observed throughout the Middle East with a maximum of 19% in the Druze (Hammer et al. 2000) and an average of 5% in Italy and Greece (DiGiacomo et al. 2003). The expansion time estimates for G2-P15 closely approximate those predicted for R1b3-M269.

Which would tend to suggest that G2-P15 (G2a) came into Europe alongside R1b-M269 c.7000 BC. This would tend to preclude its back-migration from Spain IMO.

cormac


The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#582    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:47 AM

According to some scholars, the Trojans were probably related to the Hittites and spoke an Anatolian language called Luvian.


At a Symposium held at Bryn Mawr College in October 1984 linguist Prof. Watkins suggests that "Steep Wilusa", a city mentioned on a Hittite tablet which was written in Luvian, could well be "Steep llios" of the lliad. "Priya-Muwas" sounds very much like "Priamos". The Luvian "Aleksandus" may well be "Aleksandros", the second name of the Trojan prince Paris.

How can we ignore these resemblences? Especially if Homer tells us in the lliad that the Trojans and their allies spoke different languages and dialects.

"Hector, I urge you above all to do as I say. In his great city, Priam has many allies. But these foreigners all talk different languages. Let their own captains in each case take charge of them, draw up their countrymen, and lead them into battle.
(lliad II. 800-805)

"...Such was the babel that went up from the great Trojan army, which hailed from many parts, and being without a common language used many different cries and calls.
(lliao IV. 437-439)

That means the Trojans and their allies were certainly not Greek-speaking people. The names of many heroes mentioned in the lliad were local Anatolian names. Those which sound Greek were either adopted or made up. For example "Astyanax", son of Hector, was a Greek name, but Hector would call him "Skamandrias". "Hector" too could well have born a real local Anatolian name.

http://www.google.co...r1mnvtkOLCcn7g


#583    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:51 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 September 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Cinnioglu et al. (2004) also says:



Which would tend to suggest that G2-P15 (G2a) came into Europe alongside R1b-M269 c.7000 BC. This would tend to preclude its back-migration from Spain IMO.

cormac


OK, will check on that.
Do you know of an article or something that explains more on the actual mutating of the genes to create the different groups, I'd like to learn what triggers the mutations.

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#584    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:54 AM

Some scholars also speculate that the Trojans were related to the Etruscan peoples in Italy, and that they may have come originally from the steppes of Central Asia before settling in Anatolia.  That would also mean that their original language was related to Turkish and Finnish.

The city of Troy may have been conquered more than once by different groups of people, rather than there being just one single event called the Trojan War of Greeks vs, Trojans.  

http://www.google.co...bxwHUSt_vxgPZXQ


#585    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

Was this Phaistos disc, found in Crete in 1908, the actual language of the Trojans or related to it?

Posted Image

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