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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


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#811    Arpee

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:04 PM

View Postdanielost, on 17 July 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet.  A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.


"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Edited by Arpee, 17 July 2013 - 04:04 PM.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8

#812    danielost

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:14 PM

And.  No strings attached.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#813    Etu Malku

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 17 July 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Hi Etu Malku,

Here's my side of the story:
Since I've already seen Jesus Christ,
Really? Like at the supermarket or the bar? You do realize that because of such an insane claim I'm going to find it difficult to read through the rest here with any sort of seriousness?

Quote

I can now afford to believe that other people in the Bible saw Him, conversed with the Father, wrote about Them, etc. Therefore, I'm working backwards to better understand His life, why He's the Messiah. From seeing to learning Jesus' story, it's the reverse, compared to what most Christians go through. I'm using the Bible because it's the only ANCIENT book that actually tells the world Jesus Christ is God, "uncreated" -- no other book tells His supreme nature like it is -- and All Powerful's the way I understood Him in the afterlife. He's NO minor god.
Well, there's a reason why other books don't . . . the Christian bible (not really that ancient by the way) has the copyright to this Christ/Messiah fable.


Quote

On the other hand, Jesus never gave me a message to share to the world. There's nothing special about me (psychically speaking), no supernatural powers and so on. I'm no prophet, either. One could either ignore my story, or get inspired by it. I'm completely unattached. Not entirely, I enjoy sharing my thoughts and hearing other people's POV...
Bummer, he could have at least gave you an autograph so that the rest of the world doesn't think your bonkers :P . . . he never could get with the program though


Quote

I understand why people have a hard time with Bible. Thing is, just seeing Jesus Christ is NOT a guarantee of total conversion. The story of the Exodus is a good example of that, as in the Golden Calf, and also Judas. So yes, one has to accept Him in one's heart. Catch 22? In the end, it's by grace alone; however, Revelation 3:20 tells us: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
I don't know about other people, but I have a problem with the Christian bible because I don't believe it is what it claims to be. By "accept Him in one's heart" do you mean convince yourself that he exists and that this entire story is true?

Quote

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

Just sharing.
People -- what have you done --
Locked Him in His golden cage.
Made Him bend to your religion --
Him resurrected from the grave.
He is the god of nothing --
If that's all that you can see.
You are the god of everything --
He's inside you and me.
So lean upon Him gently
And don't call on Him to save you
From your social graces
And the sins you used to waive.
The bloody Church of England --
In chains of history --
Requests your earthly presence at
The vicarage for tea.
And the graven image you-know-who --
With His plastic crucifix --
He's got him fixed --
Confuses me as to who and where and why --
As to how he gets his kicks.
Confessing to the endless sin --
The endless whining sounds.
You'll be praying till next Thursday to
All the gods that you can count.

Just sharing too! :innocent:

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#814    danielost

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:21 PM

First christ is not god.
Second the book of mormon talks about christ when he came to america.
Three I am sure there are other books not in the bible that talks about christ.  Just because w haven't seen them doesn't mean tgey don't exist.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#815    Jor-el

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 16 July 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

I arrived at thise ideas due to my personal encounter with God, but logic also gets us there. Since by definition God would be the creator then he would also have created the universe. As such he had intent in doing so, so he must have had a plan in his creation. I don't see anything capable of ruining that plan so but extension, that plan will be fullfilled one way or another. Since I am in this created universe, than I must also be a part of that plan, (I say I but I mean humanity in general here), and that plan must include something that allows me to want to be a part of that plan.

Quote

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

Of course not, we can comprehend alot of things and many that we do not comprehend don't neccessarily have to be God, but neither can we simply exclude him because of our particular preference.

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-C. S. Lewis


#816    WoIverine

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:06 PM

Never mind. Delete.

Edited by WoIverine, 17 July 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#817    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:21 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 17 July 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Really? Like at the supermarket or the bar? You do realize that because of such an insane claim I'm going to find it difficult to read through the rest here with any sort of seriousness?
Insane is as insane does, never judge a book by its cover. At any rate, I've already shared my encounter with Jesus Christ. You just have to look for my past posts if you're really interested; however, you may want to review the things you wrote, regarding seriousness, before you brush people off.

View PostEtu Malku, on 17 July 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Well, there's a reason why other books don't . . . the Christian bible (not really that ancient by the way) has the copyright to this Christ/Messiah fable.
Bummer, he could have at least gave you an autograph so that the rest of the world doesn't think your bonkers :P . . . he never could get with the program though
Wrong. The people behind the Holy Bible knew the "truth." It's your word against theirs, the ones who actually experienced the Lord. Like I said, since I've already seen Jesus Christ, I can now afford to believe their testimonies. On the other hand, you don't really want to know Him; otherwise, you would have the decency to refrain yourself from poking fun at Him. It's hardly the language of diplomacy and interest...or even wittiness, for that matter. "Seriousness," you say?

View PostEtu Malku, on 17 July 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

By "accept Him in one's heart" do you mean convince yourself that he exists and that this entire story is true?
There are those who have that disposition. I had to go through the harsh way in order for me to appreciate His story and accept Him as my Lord and Savior. You see, I was sort of like you (without the snide undertone) because I was so wrapped up in my "mystical" world. But, to each his own. In the end, it was up to Jesus to grant me the needed Grace in my heart to become a Christian, "born again."

Edited by braveone2u, 17 July 2013 - 10:23 PM.

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According to Gnosticism, Christ came to world to give us a way out; so, why is Gnosticism so secretive and elitist when it comes to salvation??
Eileen Ford speaks candidly about supermodels: "...And they have to be cheerful. Nobody likes to go in and hear your troubles, you know. When people ask you how you feel, don't tell them if you're sick, 'cause they don't really care."

#818    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:45 PM

"...Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"  Mat 16:26

https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist )    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008232820397
According to Gnosticism, Christ came to world to give us a way out; so, why is Gnosticism so secretive and elitist when it comes to salvation??
Eileen Ford speaks candidly about supermodels: "...And they have to be cheerful. Nobody likes to go in and hear your troubles, you know. When people ask you how you feel, don't tell them if you're sick, 'cause they don't really care."

#819    Etu Malku

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:57 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 17 July 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

You see, I was sort of like you (without the snide undertone) because I was so wrapped up in my "mystical" world. But, to each his own. In the end, it was up to Jesus to grant me the needed Grace in my heart to become a Christian, "born again."
Trust me you have never been like me, I am 52 and have known my Path since I was 8. You are entitled to your paradigm, we all are.

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#820    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:20 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 18 July 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Trust me you have never been like me,
Nor would I want to, no offense. Again, to each his own. It's the reason why I said, sort of...because I know the uniqueness of a human being, in spite of his or her eagerness (sometimes to the point of obsession) to emulate other personalities. I am, after all, a corporate marketer -- a propagandist to some. Yes, we are always entitled to follow our heart's sincere desire, regardless of the consequences, even if we are not aware of doing it.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 19 July 2013 - 12:21 AM.

https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist )    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008232820397
According to Gnosticism, Christ came to world to give us a way out; so, why is Gnosticism so secretive and elitist when it comes to salvation??
Eileen Ford speaks candidly about supermodels: "...And they have to be cheerful. Nobody likes to go in and hear your troubles, you know. When people ask you how you feel, don't tell them if you're sick, 'cause they don't really care."

#821    markprice

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:50 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 18 July 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Trust me you have never been like me, I am 52 and have known my Path since I was 8. You are entitled to your paradigm, we all are.

That seems like a rare class of human beings: those who know exactly what they want to do when they are kids then have the ability to do it. Then you have the seekers, dreamers, and more mundane types, if people can be classified like that. The problem with the dreamers is they don't necessarily have the ability, like Satan knowing he wants to surpass God and then just gets thrown out of that realm. So then Satan got kicked out of heaven because he was just a dreamer.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#822    danielost

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 03:46 AM

No, not a dreamer.  There are many who do but fail.  Satan is one of these.  In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him.  He almost succeded at that.

Edited by danielost, 19 July 2013 - 03:47 AM.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#823    markprice

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 July 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

No, not a dreamer.  There are many who do but fail.  Satan is one of these.  In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him.  He almost succeded at that.

What do you mean not a dreamer; that's the whole point: Satan wanted something he could never be: surpassing an infinitely transcending God? Fail. You have to remember he was not evil at that point, then became something like an abyss permeated with evil. That's some scary...oh nevermind.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#824    Etu Malku

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 10:44 PM

View Postmarkprice, on 19 July 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

That seems like a rare class of human beings: those who know exactly what they want to do when they are kids then have the ability to do it. Then you have the seekers, dreamers, and more mundane types, if people can be classified like that. The problem with the dreamers is they don't necessarily have the ability, like Satan knowing he wants to surpass God and then just gets thrown out of that realm. So then Satan got kicked out of heaven because he was just a dreamer.

View Postdanielost, on 19 July 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

No, not a dreamer.  There are many who do but fail.  Satan is one of these.  In his case he is so mad at failing he wants to take everyone else with him.  He almost succeded at that.

View Postmarkprice, on 19 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

What do you mean not a dreamer; that's the whole point: Satan wanted something he could never be: surpassing an infinitely transcending God? Fail. You have to remember he was not evil at that point, then became something like an abyss permeated with evil. That's some scary...oh nevermind.
Gentlemen, gentlemen . . . the devil fell away from god of his own free will, in this respect it proves that evil was in the world before man and that the devil already had a 'mutilated' soul . . . but who would we hold accountable for this other than his Maker, god?

The myth of the Fall originates in The Book of Enoch, and is outside of the Canon. Yet by the time the New Testament was compiled the influence of Enoch had been absorbed, along with elements of the Persian Zoroastrian religion, Judea being under Persian rule from the 6th to 4th centuries B.C. In their cosmology there are two principles of Ahura Mazda, being creative, and Ahriman, being destructive. So evenly matched are they that the slightest flux can topple the balance, and mortal-kind are constantly being drawn to one side or the other. Originally the Devil was the shadow side of God, His dark aspect.

As the Hebrew religion evolved, so did this „shadow‟, until it broke away from God and became a separate power having its own free Will. However, with this separation came the natural dualistic attribution of God‟s other characteristics, so that the Shadow also becomes His destructive and malign aspect, whilst the Light becomes everything good.

Weak, decadent, and sick people, whose will to power has declined, will give themselves a God who is purely good, according to Nietzsche.


The "Fall" should be understood as the Spirit descended to Flesh. The vision of a cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them. God asks all the angels in heaven to bow before Adam, the new creation. Satan refuses to bow, believing obedience to humans to be idolatry against God, and is swiftly cast out of heaven for his disobedience. This is an example of self-sacrificing love, agape, martyr. But instead of sacrificing material for spiritual fulfillment, he sacrifices spirit for spirit.

Carl Jung saw the myth of figures such as the Lucifer/Satan archetype as expressing "the shortcomings of the world as conceived by the human soul." Lucifer/Satan "stands as the prototype of human civilizing effort."

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#825    LostSouls7

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:10 AM

So the devil was God's Shadow side?

Don't they say we all have a Shadow Self?
maybe we all have a little Devil in us then :)

and no the Devil didn't make you do it... it's was YOU who choose to do it!
I can't believe people blame a monster with horns for things THEY did.

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