39 replies to this topic

[Jinxdom]

Can you not do something that you enjoy without somebody that you care about around? I.E. your soul mate of a significant other is in prison for something they did, does that mean you cannot enjoy the things you like while they are there? Some of my friends were in prison but I still enjoyed my life while they were in there. How would this be any different. We both knew what they did was illegal by law(not divine) and knew what they were doing and got caught. It was just acceptable.

I have a hard time believing that a lot of people I know about would get sent to hell simply for the fact that most of the bad things they did may have been illegal by law and not really unforgivable.

Is it really all that weird of a concept to be an atheist when you believe the holy book people preach about is false? There is a clause in the ten commandments that pretty much says that it is ok. Do not worship/follow false idols. If you don't believe in God, lived a good life, you happened to come across the pearly gates(or whatever), wouldn't you start to believe in the real God? Hence you'd pretty much not end up being in hell for not believing.

Even then what if they got hell wrong? Fire/heat is used to cleanse/purify after all so maybe it wouldn't be permanent just long enough to take away the problems. Would you really want to be in paradise with somebody you loved who may have snapped and slaughtered you and the rest of your loved ones before the reason for them snapping is fixed? It may even be fixed instantly or maybe instead of a guy with a book, or maybe it's more like a doctor making sure you pass some sort of holy physical before you get to enter, if you fail you might just get therapy if you really aren't all that hell worthy.

So yeah I'd still be able to enjoy paradise, if my friends burned.

Here's the kicker though your paradise and being upset might be the therapy(Not every problem needs to be resolved with torture afterall) you need for actual paradise. (Maybe that whole thing about accepting whatever God is less about God and more about accepting the things you cannot change?)

[Paranoid Android]

Sean93, on 04 January 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

Wow. That's refreshing, a Christian actually knowing when to differentiate between the Medieval/ Renaissance/ Algheri depiction of hell and that of scripture.   

If paradise is all it's cracked up to be then it'll be good for those who believe it. If death for the Atheist is as you truly believe it to be and is basically a state of non-existence then that's fine by me, and personally I'd love that; sure eternal days of peace would be better but likewise, I can see peace as nothingness, as much as some people would hate the idea of non-existent emptiness, something I can understand if they've high hopes for the afterlife.

Think of it as like being in a dreamless sleep...

There's more Christians like me than you probably think.  Most Christians don't accept a fire-and-torture hell anymore, though admittedly I think the idea of hell as death is not yet the majority view.  In any case, on the bottom of this post I've attached an essay that I wrote several years ago (and have been revising every now and then since) on the topic of Heaven and Hell.  I've linked it here before, but not for a while now.  I think you'll find it interesting.  It'll take about ten or fifteen minutes to read through it, but I hope you get a chance to look into it.  And if you get a chance, I'm always looking for ways to improve my knowledge of the topic so any constructive criticism would be very much appreciated

 Opposite of Heaven UM copy.doc   52.5K   11 downloads

~ PA

[Jinxdom]

Paranoid Android, on 04 January 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Opposite of Heaven UM copy.doc

~ PA

Quite a good read. Informative, not writing your opinion down as fact, but using information at hand to back it up what you think. A tad bit too serious for my taste(That's on me though I like absurdity and comedy) but was interesting enough for me to keep reading. Liked the ending a lot as well. Hell I'd read more things like that if you post them.

[Amalthe]

Only logical explanation is that free will and eternal torment can't coexist. Either any person who would go to heaven would be lobotomized to forget about their past, which is against the principle of free will, either sinners can't be tormented for eternity. Also, there would be no justice if two different persons commited different level of evil (compare Hitler and random ww2 nazi soldier) would receive same eternal punishment.
Therefore there is no eternal punishment in hell, but eternal death, deletion from existence, just as Paranoid Android said.

It is similar to this world, when a person goes missing, his family cannot deal with that until it knows the truth, is the person alive or not. Usualy only after you bury a person you can reconcile and move on with your life.

[Amalthe]

Paranoid Android, on 04 January 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

There's more Christians like me than you probably think.  Most Christians don't accept a fire-and-torture hell anymore, though admittedly I think the idea of hell as death is not yet the majority view.  In any case, on the bottom of this post I've attached an essay that I wrote several years ago (and have been revising every now and then since) on the topic of Heaven and Hell.  I've linked it here before, but not for a while now.  I think you'll find it interesting.  It'll take about ten or fifteen minutes to read through it, but I hope you get a chance to look into it.  And if you get a chance, I'm always looking for ways to improve my knowledge of the topic so any constructive criticism would be very much appreciated

Opposite of Heaven UM copy.doc

~ PA

Very interesting essay, and i want to point out few things that could refine your thoughts.

1. "Where do deceased righteous go, in heaven or paradise now?"

There is a interesting issue regarding Luke 23:43. You maybe know that original New testament didn't have punctuations. SoLuke 23:43 actually reads: "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise."
Now think is it possible that the sentence meant this: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." it makes more sense to understand it like that because of John 20:17 where Jesus confirms AFTER ressurection that he hasn't ascended to his Father, which means he HASN'T gone to heaven yet.

Also the point of Judgement day, as a moment where people will be judged and separated according to their deeds, is useless, if you have someone who died, went to Heaven, spent time there until Judgement day, went to be judged and returned back to Heaven.
Only logical solution is that all people, good and bad, go to She'ol whan they die, which means a Grave, state of dreamless sleep where there is no thinking or reasoning.

[Beckys_Mom]

Jinxdom, on 04 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Can you not do something that you enjoy without somebody that you care about around? I.E. your soul mate of a significant other is in prison for something they did, does that mean you cannot enjoy the things you like while they are there?

That is too vague to begin with..  Your loving partner could be in prison for a number of things.. Like  Murder, which means they could well be in for a long time  ( Life )   How about theft?  They may not be in for long.. So if they were in prison for theft ( to use as one example ) ...You would know they will be coming home again soon enough, so yes you will have lots to look forward to once you are reunited with them..   To now look at life long sentences...If your partner is in for life, and most likely serving more than one life sentence, then you know you are not likely to see them again with you at home..

But what you need to take into consideration is  How their crimes that put them away has effected you?
Are you saddened and angered by their actions?
Do you feel they deserve it and hope they rot in jail?

Then there is the possible feeling of compassion and loyalty to that person you love
Maybe you feel they deserve a chance?
You long for them to be set free?  The list can go on.. But even if you are greatly saddened they are in for life and the chances of you seeing them home again are remote, it does not mean you will go around with sheer happiness and enjoy your life  ( unless of course, you are self centered and care only for yourself ) .. You could well be feeling like those who have lost loved ones - Grief stricken

How do so many react when they have lost a loved one and they are filled with grief?..Sadness, Anger  ( even taking it out on others ) Denial, Depression and Acceptance ..So in a way, if your loved one had been sentence in definitely and you know they will not be at home with you and your family again, you could well feel the same as those suffering grief ... Every day that passes you will think of them... When you go on holiday or out to a special event, you will find yourself feeling - "I wish they were here with me"... There is no real guarantee that you will feel 100 % completely over joyed with life and continue doing so..There is always that black hole that is left empty

In the afterlife,in my own opinion, this is not the same... If your partner is not in heaven with you,, whether he or she be forever dead  or if there is a place called hell, he or she stuck there.. I would imagine that for those who are not selfish and known to put others in front of themselves, will feel empty and not 100% knowing their loved ones are not with them.. If heaven is a real place, they would likely go on a search for them, not wanting to ever give up..Fact is, you would still have to get on with your life regardless, you would not have a choice...

True story about myself - When I was counting down the short weeks of my new daughter coming to me, looking forward to holding her, feeding and taking care of her.. I faced the most disturbing time of my life..I was brought in to give birth to a child that had died on me..The experience itself still haunts me to this day.........At times I still cry and ask why? .... The autopsy report showed no medical reason for her death, so I was left with nothing

Some people were harsh towards me, giving me a hard time over it.. Even on line, I faced arrogance over it all, but I looked right past it and did not allow it to prevent me from carrying on   I never gave up hope on a second child... With every last shred of faith I had left in me, I kept going.........I had an early miscarriage during that process, it struck me down and I got back up and kept going...I finally fell pregnant with my little baby boy - Aaron..and I done everything I possibly could to make sure I could carry him full term.. I even spent long nights praying and talking to god, looking for that one last chance......In the end, I got it...  My mother hugged me saying - "You were always a true fighter with spirit, you never give up hope"... This I believe is true..it takes a lot of spirit, love and compassion to keep going cling to your faith...Even if you have so little of that faith left, you fight for it to the very end

Now that I have my baby boy, I am happy yes, but there is not a day that goes by where I done feel a bit of sadness thinking of the one I lost, wishing she was here... I have been happy, but not 100% over joyed feeling complete.. No.. I cannot explain why that is

Quote

  So yeah I'd still be able to enjoy paradise, if my friends burned

That in a huge way differs greatly from myself. .I cannot ever feel that and think that is fine for me...Maybe it is because I am a fighter with spirit and I never give up?  I am not one to put myself first?I honestly do not know why? All I can say here is, I cannot feel that way...I never have done before...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 04 January 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Amalthe, on 04 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Very interesting essay, and i want to point out few things that could refine your thoughts.

1. "Where do deceased righteous go, in heaven or paradise now?"

There is a interesting issue regarding Luke 23:43. You maybe know that original New testament didn't have punctuations. SoLuke 23:43 actually reads: "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise."
Now think is it possible that the sentence meant this: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." it makes more sense to understand it like that because of John 20:17 where Jesus confirms AFTER ressurection that he hasn't ascended to his Father, which means he HASN'T gone to heaven yet.

I've thought of that, and while I agree it is possible I have personally decided that this line of reasoning is wrong.  It just sounds wrong to say "I say to you today....".  But whether it is or it isn't, I've figured it as a minor issue in terms of the bigger picture.

I've also heard from some people that the sentence is not grammatically correct in Greek if it meant "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".  But I don't know about that, I've never corroborated that with other sources, so I'm not willing to simply put it out there without qualification.  Unfortunately I'm no linguistic scholar, and have to rely on people better read than I.

Amalthe, on 04 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Also the point of Judgement day, as a moment where people will be judged and separated according to their deeds, is useless, if you have someone who died, went to Heaven, spent time there until Judgement day, went to be judged and returned back to Heaven.
Only logical solution is that all people, good and bad, go to She'ol whan they die, which means a Grave, state of dreamless sleep where there is no thinking or reasoning.

Not necessarily.  Judgement may still be pronounced on someone who has made it to heaven, and gifts may be given to those who have earned them in God's service.  Think about the whole "store up treasures in heaven" spiel that Jesus speaks of.  If a person "stores up treasure in heaven" they are putting away credit for the afterlife.  What if people on earth can "earn" greater things in the afterlife than simply being there?

[Sean93]

Jinxdom, on 04 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Can you not do something that you enjoy without somebody that you care about around? I.E. your soul mate of a significant other is in prison for something they did, does that mean you cannot enjoy the things you like while they are there? Some of my friends were in prison but I still enjoyed my life while they were in there. How would this be any different. We both knew what they did was illegal by law(not divine) and knew what they were doing and got caught. It was just acceptable.

It would be different because damnation is forever and is suffering without repose..just a tad different from being in prison with three-square meals, a bed and above all, being pain free and with the hope of redemption (on social terms).

[AliveInDeath7]

I don't think I'll ever find out. Paradise doesn't seem like it will ever fully happen, it's like a fairytale to me.

[Jinxdom]

Beckys_Mom, on 04 January 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

That is too vague to begin with..

The problem is that is not that it's vague. It's that we don't agree on the on terms. Which is the basis of everything. This is why acceptance is important. I'd be quite upset if my friends were burning forever for something I didn't agree with just like anybody else.

Here's the thing though I consider everything I come in to contact with who benefits(discussion, money, anything that provides more) me in some way a friend. That means everybody here. Even when I disagree with somebody I gain benefit from it. When I get punished, I learn something.

Anybody who does not provide total benefit and just takes away is my enemy. (You lie, cheat, steal, try to kill me, without a reason or without a good reason). These people are not my friends nor family and I wouldn't care if they burned.

I'll even use you for an example If you got went to hell just because of the fact you don't agree with me.. I'd be upset. Since I consider you a friend(and everybody here at UM I consider a friend).
If you killed me just because I didn't agree with you... I really wouldn't be all that upset that you were burning. Doesn't matter how we were connected by blood, money, proximity or just a stranger (I highly doubt you would because you are not an evil person)
If I didn't know about it. I couldn't be upset either.

Now if you killed me because I tried to kill you just to kill you, I would expect you to be alright with me burning. I'd be ok with me burning if I did that.

Not everybody agrees to the term friend and enemy like I do. My term for friend is quite different from yours. Which is why I'd be able to accept that my friends (using other people's definition and not mine) Were burning,

Also why acceptance is the key to getting over just about everything. (although it's not an excuse to not do anything)

Feel free to smack me around a bit if I go too much philosopher, new age hippie type stuff,(seriously go to far with this stuff you end up sounding like some sort of Buddhist monk or maybe even Jesus so feel free to smack me out of it )

Edited by Jinxdom, 05 January 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Rlyeh]

Jinxdom, on 04 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Can you not do something that you enjoy without somebody that you care about around? I.E. your soul mate of a significant other is in prison for something they did, does that mean you cannot enjoy the things you like while they are there? Some of my friends were in prison but I still enjoyed my life while they were in there. How would this be any different. We both knew what they did was illegal by law(not divine) and knew what they were doing and got caught. It was just acceptable.

And how many of your friends were in prison for thought crimes or apostasy?

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 January 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[markdohle]

If hell is a choice, a true desire to be away from God, then hell is the best place for them to be.  Not a punishment, just a state, again freely chosen to be apart.  So to bring a soul from hell to heaven would cause more pain and suffering.  Those who hate light, find it painful and the dark a better place to be.  Is there suffering in hell, yes, because we cut ourselves off from the source of our being, so there will be suffering, but again chosen.  Repentance is impossible for them, they don't want it.  So why should someone in heaven, who choses God, the source of their being, allow someone who choses otherwise to take away from their happiness  What good would it do to join them, since cut off from light and love, they would be incapable of anything like that.  Those in hell might not be human, just fragments that will disentergrate for eternity.

After saying that, I don't know what hell is, how someone could turn from God, the light and source of all love and happiness, yet Christ says that it is possible, so I guess it is.  I know what is in my heart and my own struggles, so i can see myself doing that if I loose my love of God and others.

peace
mark

Edited by markdohle, 05 January 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[SavageDragon]

If I were aware of my dears burning in hell, I wouldn't be able to enjoy a thing. But being in paradise suffering so harshly for something would be a contradiction in terms; so I guess that if there is a paradise, you would either don't know or you would be in a reality so different from the one we are currently experiencing that it wouldn't matter anyway.

Edited by SavageDragon, 05 January 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[dougeaton]

In this world, we don't allow our loved ones who wish "to cut off their noses to spite their faces" to ruin our lives......so I would think the same rule applies to a supposed afterlife.  If someone does allow a so called love one to ruin their lives, then they are morons.

doug

Edited by dougeaton, 05 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Seeker79]

The op was pointed at Christians, but there are many other understandings of the afterlife and spirit world. For one. Damnation probably dosnt exist. It dosnt make a lot of sense. More recent mystics describe those that die as "evil" people actually encounter something more like a hospital to be rehabilitated.

Still yet. People feel like its necessary to apply linier thinking to a spirit world because we experience a linier existence here on earth. Temporal progression and awareness are probably going to be something completely different in an entirely different mode of existence.

Most people that have obtained an awareness of nirvana, heaven, usually describe it as a union. Where ego is dissolved and human psychological persuits are no longer in existence. Attachments would be no longer necessary upon the revelation that nothing is  actually separate.

Unfortunately nothing can be realized or conceptualized except upon a return and memory of such a state.

Do I worry that I will not be with my loved ones? A little. But I have also learned that right now is an eternity, and I have my own visions that give me Answers.

The Christian version of hell or it's modern equivalent eternal death seems highly unlikely if a spirit world exists. There would be many more inteligable and efficient ways of spiritual development and growth than the absolutes brought forth by religions. Even concepts that we cannot begin to understand.