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Göbekli Tepe-10 000 BC


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#226    docyabut2

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:55 PM

 Everdred, on 14 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

His argument for dating doesn't seem to address the artifact assemblages associated with the site that place it right in the early Neolithic.

And why do you think they'll find Balearic culture in Mesopotamia?


Similar to the circle stones of Menorca, the other sites around Gobeki tepe are square.:)

http://www.flickr.co...ras/5527852084/


http://www.ancient-w...key.htm#turkish sites

Edited by docyabut2, 14 February 2013 - 11:55 PM.


#227    Everdred

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

 docyabut2, on 14 February 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Similar to the circle stones of Menorca, the other sites around Gobeki tepe are square. :)

http://www.flickr.co...ras/5527852084/


http://www.ancient-w...key.htm#turkish sites

There's a basic similarity, yes, but that's not uncommon for many neolithic sites.  But the Talayotic culture is also different in many aspects, including the distinctive talayots themselves and the city designs, as well as the navetes and other monuments.  And they're really far away.


#228    docyabut2

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:28 AM

 Everdred, on 15 February 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

There's a basic similarity, yes, but that's not uncommon for many neolithic sites.  But the Talayotic culture is also different in many aspects, including the distinctive talayots themselves and the city designs, as well as the navetes and other monuments.  And they're really far away.

The stone sites around Gobeki tepe are constucted in a square pattern, not like  Gobeki tepe  that is constructed in a circle pattern.


http://www.ancient-w...key.htm#turkish

Edited by docyabut2, 15 February 2013 - 12:30 AM.


#229    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:14 AM

 TheSearcher, on 14 February 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Fair enough mate, I understand.

But even if the 7000BCdate is correct, it's still only the early beginnings of the civilization, so it couldn't have spread that far out. that kind of spreading would take a far more developed one.
http://en.wikipedia....ey_Civilization

The wiki link gives the same date for Mehrgarh so it is correct.


#230    onereaderone

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:56 AM

 the L, on 29 January 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

Posted Image


I wonder if is it first temple ,can we talk about first religon?

i  am  not  that  bright about  such  things...  but  does  any  one  see   a  star  finder  in  these  structures ...

that  is  to  say ,  the  flat  top  is where  a  second  object is  placed  with  the  edge to  point  where  the  star  is found in  the  sky.   when   seated  in a  place in  the  center ,  each  direction  of  the  sky  has  its  post  for  star  location .

building  first  the  small western  ,  then  improvement  in  the  northern larger...  then  tha  master craftsman   construct  the   greater   to  the  southeast ...   each  to  hold  larger  groups  of  master  student   / teacher  class   ....    
that  is  to  say  ,  season  effect  the  crops  planting  and  harvest ...  with   housing   and  service  building  that   are  constructed   on   circle  foundations


#231    onereaderone

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

i  am  not  that  bright  about  such  things  ...   but  those  are  not  walls....    they  are  access   walk  ways  for  service  personel  to  move  something   from  or  to   one   t  shape  to  the  next .  
thats  what  make  the   form  and  function  so  transparent ,  the   lower  out  side   walk  way  was  for  access  to  the  inner ,  as  to  not  interfer  with  the  viewer    on  the  inner  circle  as  they  did  their  observations


#232    onereaderone

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

that  is  no  gate  for  guarding  the  inner  spaces...   it  is  designed  as  a  fulcrum  and  lever   for  lifting  some  object  of  great  weight  up  to  the  walk  way ....  

either  a  object  of  weight  or  of  a delicate  construction where  great  care  needed  to  be  taken ....

THE  FOLLOWING  IS  TOTALY  UNSUPPORTED  SPECULATION:

{if  i  were  asked  to  design   something  where   a  fluid   bowl  or   vessel  were   being  moved...   that   is  pretty  much  what   i  would  have  done ...   form  and  function  would  not  require   that   size  for  water ...   so  its  not  water  or  blood...   metal   would  not  need  the  walk  ways....

my  guess  is  mercury  in  a  bowl  of  iron  or  bronze...   carried  in  a  tripod  ,  and  weight  in  the area of  1  to  2  tons}

Edited by onereaderone, 15 February 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#233    onereaderone

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:57 PM

 the L, on 31 July 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:



the roof  of  a temple  , beams  supported  by  the  t shapes  is  far  and  away  more  conventional .  i  see  and  understand  this ...  one  out side  wall   and  a inner  supporting  structure   for  the  load  bareing...    yes  ,  i  do  see  this .


#234    TheSearcher

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 15 February 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ey_Civilization

The wiki link gives the same date for Mehrgarh so it is correct.

OK, the date is correct, but the problem remains the same, it's still only the early beginnings of the civilization. that still makes it about 1000 years shy of the beginning of 8000 BCE, when Göbekli Tepe was deliberately buried.
I can conceive the possibility of some kind of influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around

 onereaderone, on 15 February 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

-SNIP-

THE  FOLLOWING  IS  TOTALY  UNSUPPORTED  SPECULATION:

-SNIP-

As is about 85% of the posts you made just before that and after that.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
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So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#235    onereaderone

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 08 February 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

I believe it to be a hunters hall,were venerated hunters were honoured. Agriculturist must have buried the monument.

good  speculation ,  and  there  is  pattern  of  history   common  to  your  idea  also....

but  the  soil  needed  to  bury    the  site   was  greater  than  the   energy  to  build  the  site  in  the  first  place...
far  easier  to  distroy  it...  than  bury  it....  also   the  site  shares  common  design  with  others  of  the  area  making  it  common   and  not   unique   for  the   honor  of  greater  souls  among  them...

more  likely   the  buried  dead  were   done  away  with  where  they  fell  during  the  hunt .
that  makes  this  a  place  of  farm  and  crops .


#236    docyabut2

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:15 PM

Could it be possiable the circles were a calander or a record. Why would they build them and then buried them as they were built?

Edited by docyabut2, 15 February 2013 - 01:17 PM.


#237    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:25 AM

 TheSearcher, on 15 February 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

OK, the date is correct, but the problem remains the same, it's still only the early beginnings of the civilization. that still makes it about 1000 years shy of the beginning of 8000 BCE, when Göbekli Tepe was deliberately buried.
I can conceive the possibility of some kind of influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around



As is about 85% of the posts you made just before that and after that.
The date given is for the already established city/civilization in Mehrgarh and not the date of when the civilization started coalesce.Hence we can safely assume that since by 7000 BC they had a proper city or a relatively advanced dwellings the culture could have started coalescing a couple of millenia ago. Also the fact that the IVC was way more widespread then previously thought and new digs are revealing new evidence and pushing the anitquity of the IVC is also very suggestive.


#238    TheSearcher

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 18 February 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

The date given is for the already established city/civilization in Mehrgarh and not the date of when the civilization started coalesce.Hence we can safely assume that since by 7000 BC they had a proper city or a relatively advanced dwellings the culture could have started coalescing a couple of millenia ago. Also the fact that the IVC was way more widespread then previously thought and new digs are revealing new evidence and pushing the anitquity of the IVC is also very suggestive.

Sorry but I disagree here.  Mehrgarh is seen as a precursor to IVC, quite rightly. However, the period of which we talk, the Mehrgarh of Period I, from 7000 BCE to 5500 BCE (periods established by archaeologists), was Neolithic and aceramic, meaning without the use of pottery. The earliest farming in the area was developed by semi-nomadic people, living in simple mud buildings.  It was far from the already well established city/civilization, that you seem to believe it was.

I grant that Mehrgarh is the earliest known precursor of the IVC, but we are still left with 1000 years in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Then there is also the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles, in those times, that's quite a stretch.
The IVC might have been more widespread than previously thought, yes, but that still does not make it possible, the timing and distance just don't work.

Like I said, I can conceive the possibility of some influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around.

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#239    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:39 PM

 TheSearcher, on 18 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry but I disagree here.  Mehrgarh is seen as a precursor to IVC, quite rightly. However, the period of which we talk, the Mehrgarh of Period I, from 7000 BCE to 5500 BCE (periods established by archaeologists), was Neolithic and aceramic, meaning without the use of pottery. The earliest farming in the area was developed by semi-nomadic people, living in simple mud buildings.  It was far from the already well established city/civilization, that you seem to believe it was.

I grant that Mehrgarh is the earliest known precursor of the IVC, but we are still left with 1000 years in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Then there is also the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles, in those times, that's quite a stretch.
The IVC might have been more widespread than previously thought, yes, but that still does not make it possible, the timing and distance just don't work.

Like I said, I can conceive the possibility of some influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around.

Apparently the bold portion above is something Harsh86_Patel doesn't understand, or chooses to ignore. While Mehrgarh was a city it did not meet the criteria for being a civilization. As has been pointed out many times, there are certain criteria that must be met in order to qualify as a civilization, to whit:


Quote

*  Large urban centers
*  Full-time specialist occupations
*  Primary producers of food paying surpluses to deity or ruler
*  Monumental architecture
*  Ruling class exempt from manual labor
*  System for recording information
*  Development of exact, practical sciences
*  Monumental art
*  Regular importation of raw materials
*  Interdependence of classes (peasants, craftspeople, rulers)
*  State religion/ideology
*  Persistent state structures

http://worldhistoryc.../6.3/brown.html

A city does not automatically qualify as a civilization, no matter how many times it's repeated.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#240    TheSearcher

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:19 PM

I thought the first time I said it had been sufficiently clear, but maybe I wasn't. While Mehrgarh is the precursor or even point of origin of the IVC, time wise the 1000 year gap and the nearly 4000 kilometres distance between the two make it next to impossible for Mehrgarh to have influenced Göbekli Tepe. The other way around is in this case a lot more plausible and even possible.

And as rightly pointed out by Cormac, there are a few missing criteria for it being called a civilisation in the first place. I'm not even sure if it could qualify as city as such.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
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