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#16    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 04 May 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

Deuteronomy chapters 28 & 30, dictated how the Jews retain lawful right to their homelands. The Jewish Zionists were made of entirely of atheistic Jews. Before the UN Partition Plan on November 29, 1947, the Zionist only had legal ownership and possession of 6% of Palestine which they bought out their own pockets with the help of charitable Jewry worldwide. So, before November 29, 1947, a state for the Jews could only legally be set up on 6% of Palestine. This is what infuriated the Palestinians about the plan. Because it literally gave the Zionists 56.47% of Palestine, and gave the Palestinian Arabs 43.53% of Palestine.

Now at the time of this Partition Plan there were 608,000 Jews in Palestine and there were 1,237,000 non-Jews in Palestine. So not only were the Jews immigrants at the time of the plan, but they only had legal claim to 6% of the Palestine and were a minority making up 33% of the total population of Palestine.

Now, who got the shaft from the UN, Mr Walker? The Palestinians? Or the Jews?




That is pure Zionist myth. What about the 30-40 massacres and the campaign of terror the Zionist conducted in 1947 into 1948 BEFORE the Arabs intervened on May 15, 1948. The most famous of these massacres is Deir Yassin massacre which OCCURED on April 9, 1948. More than a whole month before the Arabs declared war on Israel.

Like I said you chose to believe a history I know to be untrue.

I suspect you make that choice based on biblical beliefs, which is a dangerous and foolish thing to do. You can not make non- religious history and geopolitics fit your interpretation of biblical messages. You do not know the mind of god nor the state/condition  of israel within gods grace. And you are wrong. you do not have to be christian to be one with god. It is the natural birthright and condition of EVERY human being. They just have to take up the offer god makes them.


Ps both the league of nations and the united nations formally legalised and recognised Israels right to existence as a jewish state first in 1917 and with the official partition in 1947 Conflict was initiated by the arabs led by Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini, after the first mandate

After partion it was arab intiated conflict which has caused all the subsequent problems which exist up until this day There would be no palestinian refugees and no ongoing conflict, if both sides had accepted partition.  The arabs believed it would be easy to destroy the fledgling jewish state, but they were wrong.

The jewish people and government would have been insane to deliberately provoke and take on the  military economic and demographic might of the surrounding arab states. However, after the holocaust, they had decided that never again would they be viulnerable to, or defenceless from,  genocide by external powers, and if they were faced with unbeatable odds they would go down fighting.  As it turns out, they beat those unbeatable odds every time.  Some times by luck sometimes  only by a whisker, but mainly by guts, strategic brilliance, and determination. As an australain I identify with that sort of fight against all odds
.
Every successive attack by those arab states over at least two decades made their position, and that of the palestinians, worse.

Tthe only solution now will be a negotiated "two  state" setlement which recognises present realities and the power of israel, rather than dwelling on past perceptions and grievances.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#17    GoSC

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 May 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Like I said you chose to believe a history I know to be untrue.

I suspect you make that choice based on biblical beliefs, which is a dangerous and foolish thing to do. You can not make non- religious history and geopolitics fit your interpretation of biblical messages. You do not know the mind of god nor the state/condition  of israel within gods grace. And you are wrong. you do not have to be christian to be one with god. It is the natural birthright and condition of EVERY human being. They just have to take up the offer god makes them.

Ps both the league of nations and the united nations formally legalised and recognised Israels right to existence as a jewish state first in 1917 and with the official partition in 1947 Conflict was initiated by the arabs led by Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini, after the first mandate.

I agree Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini was a fanatic and absolute in his refusal to make any accomdation to the Zionist cause. However, he was banned and barred from Palestine by the British in 1938.  

No, no, no. Britain wasn't made mandate of Palestine by the League Of Nations UNTIL 1922!!!!!!

What the Balfour Declaration 1917 in fact was the British government folding to Zionist interests because unlike the British Jewry which at the time was majority anti-Zionist, American Jewry generally favoured Zionism. It was the hope of Britain that by acquiescing to American Jewry that the American Jewry would powerfully sway America into involvement in WWI for the Allies. By fact, with the Balfour Declaration, Britain betrayed the Arabs and the French with the Balfour Declaration.  (See MacMahon-Hussein Agreement 1915 and Sykes-Picot Agreement 1916). In fact, the Arabs were shocked and appalled of their betrayal by the British (via the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration). Actually the British politics in the region were rubbernecks. Later the British would betray the Zionists during WWII with the White Paper 1939 because they needed Arab oil to keep the war machine running during WWII. Britain was jumping in everyone's bed during these years.

In response to the White Paper 1939, the Zionists attempted to apply diplomatic pressure on Britain, United States, and Russia. They even put out propagandist lies that the British sank or turned back refugee ships. Then they initiated a bold act of political rebellion in 1942, the Biltmore Program, in which the Zionists demanded the immediate establishment of a Jewish commonwealth over ALL of Palestine with full control over immigration. The Zionists and Britain were at serious odds with Jewish groups smuggling in  immigrants and engaging in terrorists acts against the British. Both Zionists and Britain sought help from America. Both effectually divided the government and the people. The Zionists won over American Jewry to their cause while the American government desired control of Middle Eastern oil, military bases, commercial air routes, and communications, and sought not to alienate Arab nations.

By 1945, the Zionist illegal army under Mandate called  Haganah was 60,000 strong compared to the 80,000 British troops serving in Palestine at that time. Not to mention the Haganah was working in collusion with Zionist terrorist groups LEHI and Irgun led by the likes of Menachem Begin and Yitzak Shamir.

Yeah that's right, the same Menachem Begin that was Israel's 6th Prime Minister who authorized the disasterous 1982 invasion of Lebanon in "Operation Peace For Gallilee" that forever cast a shadow over Begin's stint as Prime Minister for the Sabra and Shatila Massacres that led to one of largest public demonstrations in Israeli history. These demonstrations enacted the Kahan Commission in which Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon was accussed of gross negligence and forced to resign.

And Yitzak Shamir, Israel's 7th Prime Minister that served two terms.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quote

After partion it was arab intiated conflict which has caused all the subsequent problems which exist up until this day There would be no palestinian refugees and no ongoing conflict, if both sides had accepted partition.  The arabs believed it would be easy to destroy the fledgling jewish state, but they were wrong.

No, after the partition, civil war broke out between local forces of Palestinians and Jews occured (December 1947 to May 1948). The British withdrew, but not before notifying the Zionists yet failing to notify the Arabs of their withdrawal leaving the Arabs quite unprepared. Meanwhile Plan Dalet was activated by the Zionists in which violated the UN partition resolutions. Plan Dalet is the expulsion of Arabs living within UN designated Jewish territory. The seizure of Arab areas that were designated by the UN for the Arab state-to-be and for an international free zone. All Jewish settlements in the UN-designated Arab territory were to be secured, not evacuated, with corridors reaching out to create a solid, continuous and enlarged Jewish territory.

According Jewish Israeli author Flapan, "The aim of the plan was annexation [of Arab territory] - the destruction of Arab villages was to be followed by the establishment of Jewish villages in their place."

Quote

The jewish people and government would have been insane to deliberately provoke and take on the  military economic and demographic might of the surrounding arab states. However, after the holocaust, they had decided that never again would they be viulnerable to, or defenceless from,  genocide by external powers, and if they were faced with unbeatable odds they would go down fighting.  As it turns out, they beat those unbeatable odds every time.  Some times by luck sometimes  only by a whisker, but mainly by guts, strategic brilliance, and determination. As an australain I identify with that sort of fight against all odds
.
Every successive attack by those arab states over at least two decades made their position, and that of the palestinians, worse.

Tthe only solution now will be a negotiated "two  state" setlement which recognises present realities and the power of israel, rather than dwelling on past perceptions and grievances.

Au contrare, the Zionists had better equipped and were better trained than their Arab enemies, and always maintained superior numbers overall throughout the war. The Haganah was trained by British Brigadier General Orde Wingate in 1936. For this Orde Wingate was relieved of his duty and the men who continued training begun by him were ultimately imprisoned. At the start of the war, the Arabs committed an estimated 25,000 troops against an estimated 35,000 Israelis. At the height of the war's escalation, the Arabs had committed an estimated 55,000 troops against an estimated 100,000 Israelis (of which an estimated 20,000-25,000 were European WWII veterans). It was NEVER a fair fight.

There you go again with your Zionist myths. And you relied on a pro-Zionist site.

How about doing research, I suggest looking up "Operation Balak" and please do not use a pro-Zionist site.

Christian Zionists are always trying to fit 20th Century Middle-Eastern history into the context of the Bible (Deuteronomy 28:7).

Edited by B Jenkins, 04 May 2013 - 09:57 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#18    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:46 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 04 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I agree Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini was a fanatic and absolute in his refusal to make any accomdation to the Zionist cause. However, he was banned and barred from Palestine by the British in 1938.  

No, no, no. Britain wasn't made mandate of Palestine by the League Of Nations UNTIL 1922!!!!!!

What the Balfour Declaration 1917 in fact was the British government folding to Zionist interests because unlike the British Jewry which at the time was majority anti-Zionist, American Jewry generally favoured Zionism. It was the hope of Britain that by acquiescing to American Jewry that the American Jewry would powerfully sway America into involvement in WWI for the Allies. By fact, with the Balfour Declaration, Britain betrayed the Arabs and the French with the Balfour Declaration.  (See MacMahon-Hussein Agreement 1915 and Sykes-Picot Agreement 1916). In fact, the Arabs were shocked and appalled of their betrayal by the British (via the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration). Actually the British politics in the region were rubbernecks. Later the British would betray the Zionists during WWII with the White Paper 1939 because they needed Arab oil to keep the war machine running during WWII. Britain was jumping in everyone's bed during these years.

In response to the White Paper 1939, the Zionists attempted to apply diplomatic pressure on Britain, United States, and Russia. They even put out propagandist lies that the British sank or turned back refugee ships. Then they initiated a bold act of political rebellion in 1942, the Biltmore Program, in which the Zionists demanded the immediate establishment of a Jewish commonwealth over ALL of Palestine with full control over immigration. The Zionists and Britain were at serious odds with Jewish groups smuggling in  immigrants and engaging in terrorists acts against the British. Both Zionists and Britain sought help from America. Both effectually divided the government and the people. The Zionists won over American Jewry to their cause while the American government desired control of Middle Eastern oil, military bases, commercial air routes, and communications, and sought not to alienate Arab nations.

By 1945, the Zionist illegal army under Mandate called  Haganah was 60,000 strong compared to the 80,000 British troops serving in Palestine at that time. Not to mention the Haganah was working in collusion with Zionist terrorist groups LEHI and Irgun led by the likes of Menachem Begin and Yitzak Shamir.

Yeah that's right, the same Menachem Begin that was Israel's 6th Prime Minister who authorized the disasterous 1982 invasion of Lebanon in "Operation Peace For Gallilee" that forever cast a shadow over Begin's stint as Prime Minister for the Sabra and Shatila Massacres that led to one of largest public demonstrations in Israeli history. These demonstrations enacted the Kahan Commission in which Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon was accussed of gross negligence and forced to resign.

And Yitzak Shamir, Israel's 7th Prime Minister that served two terms.

What the hell are you talking about?



No, after the partition, civil war broke out between local forces of Palestinians and Jews occured (December 1947 to May 1948). The British withdrew, but not before notifying the Zionists yet failing to notify the Arabs of their withdrawal leaving the Arabs quite unprepared. Meanwhile Plan Dalet was activated by the Zionists in which violated the UN partition resolutions. Plan Dalet is the expulsion of Arabs living within UN designated Jewish territory. The seizure of Arab areas that were designated by the UN for the Arab state-to-be and for an international free zone. All Jewish settlements in the UN-designated Arab territory were to be secured, not evacuated, with corridors reaching out to create a solid, continuous and enlarged Jewish territory.

According Jewish Israeli author Flapan, "The aim of the plan was annexation [of Arab territory] - the destruction of Arab villages was to be followed by the establishment of Jewish villages in their place."



Au contrare, the Zionists had better equipped and were better trained than their Arab enemies, and always maintained superior numbers overall throughout the war. The Haganah was trained by British Brigadier General Orde Wingate in 1936. For this Orde Wingate was relieved of his duty and the men who continued training begun by him were ultimately imprisoned. At the start of the war, the Arabs committed an estimated 25,000 troops against an estimated 35,000 Israelis. At the height of the war's escalation, the Arabs had committed an estimated 55,000 troops against an estimated 100,000 Israelis (of which an estimated 20,000-25,000 were European WWII veterans). It was NEVER a fair fight.

There you go again with your Zionist myths. And you relied on a pro-Zionist site.

How about doing research, I suggest looking up "Operation Balak" and please do not use a pro-Zionist site.

Christian Zionists are always trying to fit 20th Century Middle-Eastern history into the context of the Bible (Deuteronomy 28:7).

How do you know it was a pro zionist site? You mean it wasnt biased in favour of the arabs? I couldn't find any indication that it was a jewish site and it was not visibly biased.. And anyway, facts and statistics are facts and statistics. I am very dubious about how you used some of yours. For example while the commited forces of the arabs in the first war were only half those of Israel, the israeli numbers included their entire military forces because they were fighting on their own territory. The military forces of Egypt in total, alone, were  about eqaul in numbers, and superior in equipment and firepower to those of Israel's total armed forces. Heres a snippet from a non zionist source, which again puts an entirely different historical perspective on a number of your claims

Even so, the Arabs began the war with certain advantages. Egypt, Iraq, and Syria had air forces. Egypt and Syria had tanks, while all had some modern artillery. They had been trained for modern warfare by British and French instructors. This was particularly true of the strongest Arab formation, Jordan's Arab Legion of 10, 000 men commanded by Lt Gen Sir John Glubb.

By contrast, the Israelis started the war with few modern weapons beyond mortars, some ancient artillery, and no aircraft. They were being forced to defend a narrow coastal plain and isolated Jewish settlements, which made defence in depth impossible. Even so, they enjoyed certain assets. With some 40, 000 troops organized in nine brigades, they had a coherent military force, many of whose members, unlike the Arabs, had seen service in WW II. They were fighting in defence of the first Jewish homeland since Roman times, and in the knowledge of the recent Holocaust. Moreover, in contrast to the Arabs, they had a clear overall strategy, Plan Dallet, designed to secure the area assigned to the Jewish state under the UN partition resolution and to safeguard outlying Jewish settlements



http://www.answers.c...ab-israeli-wars









. Again, religion has no part in my ethics. I have no more  favour for the jewish religion as such or the muslim one or even the christian one. This is about what is legally and thus ethically correct.

To cut to the chase. Do you, or do you not, accept that Israel has a right to exist as an indpendent  religious tsate even if only on the boundaries of the originall mandate and UN approved territory.? Do you furhter accept that like all nation states it has a right to be strong enough to defend its territorial borders from all aggressors and to feel secure in that ability?.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 03:53 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#19    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:54 AM

Have you actually red Plan Dalet, intiated march 10th 1948, and looked at its rationales and military strategy/objectives.

Plan Dalet did not exist prior to this time, although 3 other plans; Plan B (sept 1945), The may 1946 plan, and  Plan Yehoshua, did.

It was a plan designed to secure israeli territoriall borders and lands against foreign invasion . It worked.
Ps what a lot of people forget, never knew, or ignore, is that tragedy has more than one side. No other arab state except for jordan hass accpeted palestinians as citizens and

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948 and 1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[45][46][47]



Even IF we accepted israel was in part responsible for the exodus of palestinians, their present conditions and plight, several genrations later, is the fault of the world in general and arab states in particular. Israel on the other hand has taken in and supported jewish refugees from these countries and all over the world, achieving for them the same standard of living as all israelis. Ask WHY palestinians are still living in terrible conditions in refugee camps.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 04:22 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#20    GoSC

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

How do you know it was a pro zionist site?

Because it is called Zionism-Israel.com! Check out this page: Proud Zionism


Quote

You mean it wasnt biased in favour of the arabs? I couldn't find any indication that it was a jewish site and it was not visibly biased.. And anyway, facts and statistics are facts and statistics. I am very dubious about how you used some of yours. For example while the commited forces of the arabs in the first war were only half those of Israel, the israeli numbers included their entire military forces because they were fighting on their own territory. The military forces of Egypt in total, alone, were  about eqaul in numbers, and superior in equipment and firepower to those of Israel's total armed forces. Heres a snippet from a non zionist source, which again puts an entirely different historical perspective on a number of your claims

Even so, the Arabs began the war with certain advantages. Egypt, Iraq, and Syria had air forces. Egypt and Syria had tanks, while all had some modern artillery. They had been trained for modern warfare by British and French instructors. This was particularly true of the strongest Arab formation, Jordan's Arab Legion of 10, 000 men commanded by Lt Gen Sir John Glubb.

By contrast, the Israelis started the war with few modern weapons beyond mortars, some ancient artillery, and no aircraft. They were being forced to defend a narrow coastal plain and isolated Jewish settlements, which made defence in depth impossible. Even so, they enjoyed certain assets. With some 40, 000 troops organized in nine brigades, they had a coherent military force, many of whose members, unlike the Arabs, had seen service in WW II. They were fighting in defence of the first Jewish homeland since Roman times, and in the knowledge of the recent Holocaust. Moreover, in contrast to the Arabs, they had a clear overall strategy, Plan Dallet, designed to secure the area assigned to the Jewish state under the UN partition resolution and to safeguard outlying Jewish settlements



http://www.answers.c...ab-israeli-wars


I would not rely on answers.com. Besides, Americans have been brainwashed with Israel and its PC histories. Zionists have written complete libraries about Israel or its wars. Anyways, yes Israel had a tank battalion, a navy, and an air force during the 1948 conflict. It acquired 3 American B-17 bombers through the black market. It acquired alot of arms, munitions, and airplanes from Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia exported 28 million worth in arms and military services, and Israel was the recipient of 85% of this amount. In fact Israel had air superiority by the fall of 1948. Not to mention all the volunteers from multiple nations that fought in Israel's air force.  





Quote

Again, religion has no part in my ethics. I have no more  favour for the jewish religion as such or the muslim one or even the christian one. This is about what is legally and thus ethically correct.

To cut to the chase. Do you, or do you not, accept that Israel has a right to exist as an indpendent  religious tsate even if only on the boundaries of the originall mandate and UN approved territory.? Do you furhter accept that like all nation states it has a right to be strong enough to defend its territorial borders from all aggressors and to feel secure in that ability?.

Now wait, lets switch this around, do you believe the Palestinians deserve to exist as an independent self-determining state? And btw, Israel has never ever declared its borders. Yes, that's right Israel has undeclared borders, what does that tell you? With its siege on Gaza and occupation of the West Bank and its aggressive expansionist policies, Israel will always have aggressors and will always feel insecure.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#21    GoSC

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Have you actually red Plan Dalet, intiated march 10th 1948, and looked at its rationales and military strategy/objectives.

Plan Dalet did not exist prior to this time, although 3 other plans; Plan B (sept 1945), The may 1946 plan, and  Plan Yehoshua, did.

It was a plan designed to secure israeli territoriall borders and lands against foreign invasion . It worked.
Ps what a lot of people forget, never knew, or ignore, is that tragedy has more than one side. No other arab state except for jordan hass accpeted palestinians as citizens and

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948 and 1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[45][46][47]

You're using wikipedia, here lies a dilemna.


Quote

Even IF we accepted israel was in part responsible for the exodus of palestinians, their present conditions and plight, several genrations later, is the fault of the world in general and arab states in particular. Israel on the other hand has taken in and supported jewish refugees from these countries and all over the world, achieving for them the same standard of living as all israelis. Ask WHY palestinians are still living in terrible conditions in refugee camps.

Israel pays Jews to live there. It is obsessed with maintaining majority rule. In fact, that is the main reason it denies the Palestinian refugees repatriation. The Palestinians want repatriation, they dont want to be Jordanian, they dont want to be Lebanese, they dont want to be Syrian. Israel just wants these refugees to disappear.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#22    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 05 May 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Because it is called Zionism-Israel.com! Check out this page: Proud Zionism


[/left]




I would not rely on answers.com. Besides, Americans have been brainwashed with Israel and its PC histories. Zionists have written complete libraries about Israel or its wars. Anyways, yes Israel had a tank battalion, a navy, and an air force during the 1948 conflict. It acquired 3 American B-17 bombers through the black market. It acquired alot of arms, munitions, and airplanes from Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia exported 28 million worth in arms and military services, and Israel was the recipient of 85% of this amount. In fact Israel had air superiority by the fall of 1948. Not to mention all the volunteers from multiple nations that fought in Israel's air force.  










Now wait, lets switch this around, do you believe the Palestinians deserve to exist as an independent self-determining state? And btw, Israel has never ever declared its borders. Yes, that's right Israel has undeclared borders, what does that tell you? With its siege on Gaza and occupation of the West Bank and its aggressive expansionist policies, Israel will always have aggressors and will always feel insecure.

Yes I ve already said that I believe that an independent state for palestinians is essential, and a two  state system  the only solution. But when you read the propaganda  from pro palestinians you see they refuse to acknowledge israel has any right to exist. Some say it outright, some dress it up with dumb arguments like the one you spout here that because israel has no official borders it is not a nation. Otherss argue that NO nation has a basic RIGHT to existence and thus neither does Israel.  For the last 60 years arab states and leaders have been denying that Israel has any right to exist as a jewish nation state.

Even when forced to accept this principle  through diplomacy, they urge proxy forces, which they support, to continue to try and eliminate Israel. And WHY do you suppose Israel "grabs" more territory? Because it increases its stragtegic chances for survival.

Without states pledged to destroy its very existence, Isral could live comfortably within much smaller boundaries EVERY expansion of Israeli territory has come after  unsuccessful arab attacks where they lost ground to israel (you really think they would have learned this by now) If Israel had kept all the territory it won in defending itself it would include all the sinai as well as larger parts of syria and jordan, as well as all the territory now held by palestinians. Israel didnt have to give up an inch of territory and no one had the ability to force it to.
Ps sounds like you dont agree with any sites which disagree with your opinion. And you failed to answer my question. Do YOU believe a strong jewish state has a right to exist, even if only within the original mandate of the league of nations or the territories agreed on by the UN. Or do you have something against the principle and/or physical existence of such a state? If so, what is your rationale  for such an objection?.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 02:58 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#23    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 05 May 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

You're using wikipedia, here lies a dilemna.


[size=5][sup]

Israel pays Jews to live there. It is obsessed with maintaining majority rule. In fact, that is the main reason it denies the Palestinian refugees repatriation. The Palestinians want repatriation, they dont want to be Jordanian, they dont want to be Lebanese, they dont want to be Syrian. Israel just wants these refugees to disappear.

So you deny those figures are accurate? I dont know that the refugees want to go back to Israel as citizens of an Israeli/jewish state either Although i might be wrong about that.  Most arab israelis would rather live in Israel than anywhere else.
As a general indicator, a recent Harvard study found that 77%of Arab Israelis would rather live in Israel than in any other country. Many Arabs have also stated that they would much rather live in Israel than under Palestinian rule.

You do realise that about 1,500,000 arabs are citizens of Israel and make up about 20 % of the population

As an aside, do you dispute this assertion from a pro israeli website

In 2000, Israel made a series of two-state proposals which (contrary to popular myth) eventually included almost all of the West Bank (plus additional territory from Israel proper), the entire Gaza strip, Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, and a $30 billion solution for the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat not only refused – he made no counter-offer, abandoned negotiations, and immediately began planning the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Arafat was heavily criticized for this, both by the American mediators and by fellow Arabs and Palestinians.
http://www.arabisrae...-state-solution

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 03:23 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#24    GoSC

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

So you deny those figures are accurate? I dont know that the refugees want to go back to Israel as citizens of an Israeli/jewish state either Although i might be wrong about that.  Most arab israelis would rather live in Israel than anywhere else.
As a general indicator, a recent Harvard study found that 77%of Arab Israelis would rather live in Israel than in any other country. Many Arabs have also stated that they would much rather live in Israel than under Palestinian rule.

You do realise that about 1,500,000 arabs are citizens of Israel and make up about 20 % of the population

As an aside, do you dispute this assertion from a pro israeli website

In 2000, Israel made a series of two-state proposals which (contrary to popular myth) eventually included almost all of the West Bank (plus additional territory from Israel proper), the entire Gaza strip, Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, and a $30 billion solution for the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat not only refused – he made no counter-offer, abandoned negotiations, and immediately began planning the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Arafat was heavily criticized for this, both by the American mediators and by fellow Arabs and Palestinians.
http://www.arabisrae...-state-solution

MYTH: The Palestinians have rejected many "Generous" Peace offers.

This is a commonly used myth, in which the Palestinians are portrayed as a violent people, with no desire for peace. Why wouldn't the Palestinians want peace? They are under a brutal occupation, their homes are destroyed, they have no economy, and they are subject to continuous conflict. The Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis in this decades long conflict, and they have much more to gain from peace.

Supporters of Israel often point to the Palestinian rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace conference as a validation of this myth. The Israeli offer for peace is often portrayed as generous, and that Palestinians rejected it because they do not want peace. This is entirely false. The peace offer was far from generous. It would not constitute a viable Palestinian state. These are some issues with the so called "generous" offer.

Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

Israel would maintain control of all borders

The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

Palestine would have limited control of water resources

Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

The myth that Palestinians reject peace is categorically false. Palestinians desire peace, however, they will not give up their rights, and territories, which are confirmed under International law. If anything, Israel has no desire for peace.

http://www.peaceandp...com/nopeacemyth

Does Israel want Peace?

Over 60 years have passed since the establishment of the Israeli nation. Peace has been difficult to come by. The Israeli's consistently blame the Palestinians for rejecting multiple peace offers. However, these "Peace" offers are shockingly one sided, and in no way offer a free, sovereign, and viable Palestinian state. This is discussed in the Myths section.

Greater Israel

In fact, it is true that the opposite is true, and that Israel does not seek peace. This is not necessarily true for Israeli civilians, but rather the Israeli government. Firstly, to many radical Israelis, there is a dream of establishing a greater Israeli nation. The bible refers to the Israeli nation as the land spanning from the Nile to the Euphrates. This therefore, would incorporate larges areas of land from Israelis neighbors. To many radical Jews, this is the ultimate dream of Israel. Whilst this may not be the ultimate aim of the Israeli government, it must seek to appease these constituents, and as such, peace with the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors would be seen as an abandonment of this dream.

The Israeli Military Machine

Besides the dream of "Greater Israel", the Israeli military machine, comprised of one of the most advanced militaries is another reason. Israel currently has the highest per capita military spending in the world. Israel not only has one of the most advanced militaries in the world, this is also accompanied by one of the largest military industries in the world. As a major exporter of military equipment worldwide, peace would only hinder the industry, whose primary customer is the Israeli "Defense" forces. Should there be peace, one would expect that orders from the IDF would be reduced. The industry also benefits from conflict, with Israeli military products are often labeled as "combat proven".

With this industry exporting over $4.4 billion worth of military products in 2006, it is apparent that this is a crucial industry for the the nation. Interestingly, the entire GDP of the West Bank is only about $6.6 billion. With 25% of the industries production being directed at the IDF, it is apparent that peace, which would lead to reduced military orders from the IDF will result in major shortfalls for this industry, which is comprised of well over 150 firms, employing thousands of Israelis. Peace would also result in the loss of Israel's unique in house testing capabilities, the Palestinian population.

Additionally, large sums of US military aid to Israel will likely decline if peace is established between Israel, the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors. With over $3billion in military aid annually, this would be a major loss for the Israeli economy.

For the Israeli government, the choice between peace, and conflict is a rather easy one. Peace would mean that no more Israelis would die in conflict, however, this would be at the cost of a multi-billion dollar industry, employing thousands.

If Israel however, chooses to avoid peace, and continue to support its military industry, then its economy will remain stable. This is the current situation. This is off course at the cost of human life. From an Israeli Government perspective, this loss of life is insignificant. In 2006, the Israel-Lebanon war resulted in the death of about 150 Israelis, primarily soldiers. In the same year, over 460 Israelis were killed in car accidents. In the 2008 Gaza war, 13 Israeli (10 soldiers, 3 civilians) were killed as a result of the conflict.

For Israel, the death of a handful civilians is not as important as a multi-billion dollar industry, and off course, the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian civilians is not even worth considering, after all, this only proves that the industry is providing effective products.

http://www.peaceandp...pic/israelpeace

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#25    GoSC

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Ps sounds like you dont agree with any sites which disagree with your opinion. And you failed to answer my question. Do YOU believe a strong jewish state has a right to exist, even if only within the original mandate of the league of nations or the territories agreed on by the UN. Or do you have something against the principle and/or physical existence of such a state? If so, what is your rationale  for such an objection?.

The America freeloading Israel represents an oppressive colonialist, expansionist, and supremacist state with only Jewish interests that plays the aggressor-victimhood card with disingenuous brilliance through media propaganda and an almighty lobby to the unaware and the sleeping masses. There is nearly 2 million Gazans living in an open air prison. There is about 2.5 million Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank. There is 5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. I simply don't support Israel until it changes all of its discriminatory policies and makes concessions to vastly improve the lives of Palestinians. Palestinians deserve their freedoms and their right to a self-determining state of their own. What do you feel about that?

Edited by B Jenkins, 06 May 2013 - 01:03 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#26    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 06 May 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

MYTH: The Palestinians have rejected many "Generous" Peace offers.

This is a commonly used myth, in which the Palestinians are portrayed as a violent people, with no desire for peace. Why wouldn't the Palestinians want peace? They are under a brutal occupation, their homes are destroyed, they have no economy, and they are subject to continuous conflict. The Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis in this decades long conflict, and they have much more to gain from peace.

Supporters of Israel often point to the Palestinian rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace conference as a validation of this myth. The Israeli offer for peace is often portrayed as generous, and that Palestinians rejected it because they do not want peace. This is entirely false. The peace offer was far from generous. It would not constitute a viable Palestinian state. These are some issues with the so called "generous" offer.

Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

Israel would maintain control of all borders

The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

Palestine would have limited control of water resources

Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

The myth that Palestinians reject peace is categorically false. Palestinians desire peace, however, they will not give up their rights, and territories, which are confirmed under International law. If anything, Israel has no desire for peace.

http://www.peaceandp...com/nopeacemyth

Does Israel want Peace?

Over 60 years have passed since the establishment of the Israeli nation. Peace has been difficult to come by. The Israeli's consistently blame the Palestinians for rejecting multiple peace offers. However, these "Peace" offers are shockingly one sided, and in no way offer a free, sovereign, and viable Palestinian state. This is discussed in the Myths section.

Greater Israel

In fact, it is true that the opposite is true, and that Israel does not seek peace. This is not necessarily true for Israeli civilians, but rather the Israeli government. Firstly, to many radical Israelis, there is a dream of establishing a greater Israeli nation. The bible refers to the Israeli nation as the land spanning from the Nile to the Euphrates. This therefore, would incorporate larges areas of land from Israelis neighbors. To many radical Jews, this is the ultimate dream of Israel. Whilst this may not be the ultimate aim of the Israeli government, it must seek to appease these constituents, and as such, peace with the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors would be seen as an abandonment of this dream.

The Israeli Military Machine

Besides the dream of "Greater Israel", the Israeli military machine, comprised of one of the most advanced militaries is another reason. Israel currently has the highest per capita military spending in the world. Israel not only has one of the most advanced militaries in the world, this is also accompanied by one of the largest military industries in the world. As a major exporter of military equipment worldwide, peace would only hinder the industry, whose primary customer is the Israeli "Defense" forces. Should there be peace, one would expect that orders from the IDF would be reduced. The industry also benefits from conflict, with Israeli military products are often labeled as "combat proven".

With this industry exporting over $4.4 billion worth of military products in 2006, it is apparent that this is a crucial industry for the the nation. Interestingly, the entire GDP of the West Bank is only about $6.6 billion. With 25% of the industries production being directed at the IDF, it is apparent that peace, which would lead to reduced military orders from the IDF will result in major shortfalls for this industry, which is comprised of well over 150 firms, employing thousands of Israelis. Peace would also result in the loss of Israel's unique in house testing capabilities, the Palestinian population.

Additionally, large sums of US military aid to Israel will likely decline if peace is established between Israel, the Palestinians, and Arab neighbors. With over $3billion in military aid annually, this would be a major loss for the Israeli economy.

For the Israeli government, the choice between peace, and conflict is a rather easy one. Peace would mean that no more Israelis would die in conflict, however, this would be at the cost of a multi-billion dollar industry, employing thousands.

If Israel however, chooses to avoid peace, and continue to support its military industry, then its economy will remain stable. This is the current situation. This is off course at the cost of human life. From an Israeli Government perspective, this loss of life is insignificant. In 2006, the Israel-Lebanon war resulted in the death of about 150 Israelis, primarily soldiers. In the same year, over 460 Israelis were killed in car accidents. In the 2008 Gaza war, 13 Israeli (10 soldiers, 3 civilians) were killed as a result of the conflict.

For Israel, the death of a handful civilians is not as important as a multi-billion dollar industry, and off course, the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian civilians is not even worth considering, after all, this only proves that the industry is providing effective products.

http://www.peaceandp...pic/israelpeace

This is just propaganda and quite obviously so.  For BOTH sides there cannot be peace without security. Isreal is no threat to palestinians or its neighbours, but they are a real and constant threat to israel and the jewish peole and have been from before israel delcared its existence. This is evidenced by factual history not propaganda. Nothing has changed about the verbal threats and physicla violence  initiated by arab states and palestinian terorists. The palestinians will be refugees for a hundred years if they think the way to an independent state is through war and terror.

The futility of this is made symbolically clear every time you see some young palestinian boy with a slingshot trying to take on  an isralei soldier with an automatic rifle. It is only the forbearance, discipline and tolerance,  of the soldier which mostly stops the child from being killed. His resistance is both futile and stupid as well as non productive and  dangerous for himselfand for others around him.

It is about machismo  and peer group pressure more than anything else, and public relations.  Some palestinian leaders encourage those children to risk their lives, for nothing more than a photo opportunity to win sympathy

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#27    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:32 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 06 May 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

The America freeloading Israel represents an oppressive colonialist, expansionist, and supremacist state with only Jewish interests that plays the aggressor-victimhood card with disingenuous brilliance through media propaganda and an almighty lobby to the unaware and the sleeping masses. There is nearly 2 million Gazans living in an open air prison. There is about 2.5 million Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank. There is 5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. I simply don't support Israel until it changes all of its discriminatory policies and makes concessions to vastly improve the lives of Palestinians. Palestinians deserve their freedoms and their right to a self-determining state of their own. What do you feel about that?
I feel you still haven't answered my question. My answer is that both israel and the palestinians require independent secure states and that only this solution will be workable so it MUST be fairly negotiated and secured with military security for both sides.

isreal is not going to, never will, and should not be asked to, allow palestinians into its borders in numbers and under conditions which would pose a threat to the existence of israel. Thats just stupid thinking which cannot contribute to a solution.

. Your emotive and  biased language betrays that you feel, more than think, about this issue. It is like something from 1984. and it makes it imposible to discuss this issue rationally with you. I cant talk rationally with a person who is thinking and speaking in words like you are using here, (which i have highlighted) If it wasnt so tragic, it would be hilarious.

Edited by Mr Walker, 06 May 2013 - 08:35 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#28    GoSC

GoSC

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 May 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

This is just propaganda and quite obviously so.  For BOTH sides there cannot be peace without security. Isreal is no threat to palestinians or its neighbours, but they are a real and constant threat to israel and the jewish peole and have been from before israel delcared its existence. This is evidenced by factual history not propaganda. Nothing has changed about the verbal threats and physicla violence  initiated by arab states and palestinian terorists. The palestinians will be refugees for a hundred years if they think the way to an independent state is through war and terror.

Israel is always a constant threat to the Palestinians, but you obviously completely oblivious to living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. That is factual history. Fact, the Palestinians have no standing army, they have no tanks or armor, they have no air force and warplanes, they have no navy and ships. Yes, there is terrorism and some will never acknowledge Israel as a state. What is terrorism to us, is resistance to them.

Israel is the 5th largest military power in the world.
Israel is the 5th largest nuclear power in the world.

Quote

The futility of this is made symbolically clear every time you see some young palestinian boy with a slingshot trying to take on  an isralei soldier with an automatic rifle. It is only the forbearance, discipline and tolerance,  of the soldier which mostly stops the child from being killed. His resistance is both futile and stupid as well as non productive and  dangerous for himselfand for others around him.

It is about machismo  and peer group pressure more than anything else, and public relations.  Some palestinian leaders encourage those children to risk their lives, for nothing more than a photo opportunity to win sympathy

What an infantile way to look at this, Israel has a history of violently opposing peaceful protest in the West Bank. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#29    GoSC

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 May 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I feel you still haven't answered my question. My answer is that both israel and the palestinians require independent secure states and that only this solution will be workable so it MUST be fairly negotiated and secured with military security for both sides.

isreal is not going to, never will, and should not be asked to, allow palestinians into its borders in numbers and under conditions which would pose a threat to the existence of israel. Thats just stupid thinking which cannot contribute to a solution.

. Your emotive and  biased language betrays that you feel, more than think, about this issue. It is like something from 1984. and it makes it imposible to discuss this issue rationally with you. I cant talk rationally with a person who is thinking and speaking in words like you are using here, (which i have highlighted) If it wasnt so tragic, it would be hilarious.

No, I felt it was an appropriate analogy, how people can't criticize Israel and its occupation and its policies without some numbskull blurting "ANTI-SEMITE! ANTI-SEMITE!"

People can criticize America, people can criticize Britain, people can criticize France, etc. But when it comes to Israel... there is a sickness in many people.

Like it is a .... thought crime!

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#30    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:19 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 06 May 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Israel is always a constant threat to the Palestinians, but you obviously completely oblivious to living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. That is factual history. Fact, the Palestinians have no standing army, they have no tanks or armor, they have no air force and warplanes, they have no navy and ships. Yes, there is terrorism and some will never acknowledge Israel as a state. What is terrorism to us, is resistance to them.

Israel is the 5th largest military power in the world.
Israel is the 5th largest nuclear power in the world.



What an infantile way to look at this, Israel has a history of violently opposing peaceful protest in the West Bank. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The photos/images I see on the news are not of peaceful protest. Unless you call kids armed with slingshots and molotov cocktails, peaceful protestors. But then i suppose you feel the world press is zionist controlled? LOL

On the other hand, it is true that a peaceful protest would not make world headlines, and thus I would never see it.

Perhaps that is why PEACEFUL protests are rare. :devil:  Iam fully aware of the living conditions, both of palestinians in Israel and in the huge camps in jordan and elsewhere. What we disagree on is WHY those camps exist and WHAT can be done to give palestinians land and peace.

Apart from jordan no arab state has offered to incorporate palestinians (even those born within their borders) into their own state or give them status. There are a number of arguments why this is so, but the conditons of those in refugee camps, especially, could be greatly alleviated without an immediate return to their home territories. Some have lived there for three generations and have no legal status at all. It is tragic to realise that they are likely to be there for another 60 years, and three generations, if arabs rely on military means to  regain their territory.

Edited by Mr Walker, 07 May 2013 - 01:20 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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