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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#11581    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:01 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

OK, are you placing East Flyland as being in the Wadden Islands?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlieland


The Vlie or Vliestroom is the seaway between the Dutch islands of Vlieland, to its southwest, and Terschelling, to its northeast. The Vlie was the estuary of the river IJssel in medieval times. In 1666 the English Admiral Robert Holmes burnt a Dutch merchant fleet of 130 ships (Holmes's Bonfire), that had taken refuge in the Vlie, mistakenly supposing the English could never find their way through the treacherous shoals, so typical for the coastal waters there. Today it's still possible to reach the port of Harlingen by way of the Vlie.
It is often supposed that the old Roman name for the lake that later would become the Zuiderzee: Lacus Flevo, is etymologically related to the name "Vlie" and that perhaps Vlie was once the name of the entire lake and the big river that flowed out of it. In the 13th century large floods widened the estuary and destroyed much of the peat land behind, creating a continuous area of sand and mudflats connecting the sea to the enlarged inland lake and obscuring the flow of the river. When the Afsluitdijk was created, the old streambed from the river to the sea was obstructed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlie

A river once flowed out to Vlieland (Flyland).

Vlieland is indeed a Wadden Island, now. But once it was connected to the province of Friesland through a large stretch of land.

I think the OLB West Flyland was west of the Vlie/Fly river, and East Flyland was east of that river. But how far to the east reached East Flyland?

Just reread these two lines from the OLB:

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in East-flyland, with his parents.
The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin with his brave home guard
.

Does this suggest Lumkamakia was located in Denmark?


#11582    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:10 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

You were going on about the Emden, but that's not this same river Eem, as far as I can see.

The name in the OLB is "E-mude". And so many think it was what we now call Emden, which lies at the river Ems.

The oldest name for Emden was "Amuthon". Then I googled that name, and the city of "Muiden" showed up, a city not located anywhere near what must have been East Flyland.

And then you showed it again (or a map of the province Muiden is located), and that's why I said again that it wasn't in East Flyland.

Maybe we should forget about the river Ems and Emden altogether, and try to find something in Denmark.

At least that's where traditon says Wodan/Odin was born (Odense, Fyn island).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 12:13 PM.


#11583    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:27 PM

 Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

The name in the OLB is "E-mude". And so many think it was what we now call Emden, which lies at the river Ems.

The oldest name for Emden was "Amuthon". Then I googled that name, and the city of "Muiden" showed up, a city not located anywhere near what must have been East Flyland.

And then you showed it again (or a map of the province Muiden is located), and that's why I said again that it wasn't in East Flyland.

Maybe we should forget about the river Ems and Emden altogether, and try to find something in Denmark.

At least that's where traditon says Wodan/Odin was born (Odense, Fyn island).

.
OK, but to clarify, the river Ems/Emden is nowhere near this river Eems in Netherlands. Neither are in East Flyland, if that is referring to the Wadden Sea island Vlie area.

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#11584    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:31 PM

 Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Vlieland is indeed a Wadden Island, now. But once it was connected to the province of Friesland through a large stretch of land.

I think the OLB West Flyland was west of the Vlie/Fly river, and East Flyland was east of that river. But how far to the east reached East Flyland?

Just reread these two lines from the OLB:

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in East-flyland, with his parents.
The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin with his brave home guard
.

Does this suggest Lumkamakia was located in Denmark?

I think it depends on where the East Flyland is that is referred to in the OLB - maybe it is different - Flevoland area?
Also, Wodin may have been in Denmark working, sailing or whatever, but actually lived in Lumkamakia in East Flyland.

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#11585    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

Flyland might have been the whole large lake of the now Zuiderzee, so East Flyland might have reached right into Frisia/Netherlands...?

It is often supposed that the old Roman name for the lake that later would become the Zuiderzee: Lacus Flevo, is etymologically related to the name "Vlie" and that perhaps Vlie was once the name of the entire lake and the big river that flowed out of it.

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#11586    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

Utrecht is an old place...

Although there is some evidence of earlier inhabitation in the region of Utrecht, dating back to the Stone Age (app. 2200 BCE) and settling in the Bronze Age (app. 1800–800 BCE)
http://en.wikipedia....i/Utrecht_(city)

Right near the Eemmeer, the Eems and Flevoland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eemmeer

It depends on where this East Flyland was once.

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#11587    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:50 PM

What does anyone think the FLY in Flyland means? Why is the area named Flyland? Fly in Frisian? Maybe flowland, like flowing water, river, lake land..?

Dutch apparently is: Du. vloeien "to flow," - could this be a variation of Vlie - Fly as in Flowland - a stream land?

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=flow

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 12:53 PM.

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#11588    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:57 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

OK, but to clarify, the river Ems/Emden is nowhere near this river Eems in Netherlands. Neither are in East Flyland, if that is referring to the Wadden Sea island Vlie area.

Really??

The Ems (German: Ems; Dutch: Eems) is a river in northwestern Germany and the northeastern Netherlands. It runs through the states of North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony, and discharges into the Wadden Sea. Its total length is 371 km. The state border between the Lower Saxon area of East Friesland (Germany) and the province of Groningen (Netherlands), whose exact course is the subject of a border dispute between Germany and the Netherlands, runs through the Ems estuary.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Ems_(river)


#11589    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:08 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

What does anyone think the FLY in Flyland means? Why is the area named Flyland? Fly in Frisian? Maybe flowland, like flowing water, river, lake land..?

Dutch apparently is: Du. vloeien "to flow," - could this be a variation of Vlie - Fly as in Flowland - a stream land?

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=flow

Apparently Flyland is named after the land where the river Fly/Vlie/Fleho ran through, like the river Rhine runs to the German Rhineland.

You would say in English: 'a running river". We would say (in old fashioned Dutch) "een vliedende rivier". We still have many streams here that are called "Vliet".

In English you have "to flee":

flee
O.E. fleon "take flight, fly from, avoid, escape" (contracted class II strong verb; past tense fleah, pp. flogen), from P.Gmc. *thleukhanan (cf. O.H.G. fliohan, O.N. flöja, O.Fris. flia, Du. vlieden, Ger. fliehen, Goth. þliuhan "to flee"), of unknown origin. Not found outside Germanic. Weak pt./pp. fled emerged M.E., under influence of Scandinavian. O.E. had a trans. form, geflieman "put to flight," which came in handy in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


But the Dutch word 'vlieden' also means, 'to escape', 'to run away', or 'to run fast'.

I assume the Fleho/Fly/Vlie was a fast running river, and it's source was the Flevo Lake which already existed in Roman times.

So Flyland is not the land that was once the bottom of the Zuiderzee/IJsselmeer, but the land north of that lake.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 01:13 PM.


#11590    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Utrecht is an old place...

Although there is some evidence of earlier inhabitation in the region of Utrecht, dating back to the Stone Age (app. 2200 BCE) and settling in the Bronze Age (app. 1800–800 BCE)
http://en.wikipedia....i/Utrecht_(city)

Right near the Eemmeer, the Eems and Flevoland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eemmeer

It depends on where this East Flyland was once.

Wrong. The name of the river is EEM, not EEMS.

And the EEMMEER is an artifical lake.


#11591    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:14 PM

 Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Wrong. The name of the river is EEM, not EEMS.

And the EEMMEER is an artifical lake.

Yeah, I'm confused, all these Ems and Eem, Eems etc.

But this is the one I mean: The Eem (formerly the Amer) is a river in the north of the Utrecht Province in the Netherlands with a length of approximately 18 kilometres (11 mi).

The question is as you said - how far East did East Flyland go?

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#11592    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

 The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm confused, all these Ems and Eem, Eems etc.

But this is the one I mean: The Eem (formerly the Amer) is a river in the north of the Utrecht Province in the Netherlands with a length of approximately 18 kilometres (11 mi).

The question is as you said - how far East did East Flyland go?

Yes, how far east, not how far south. Most probably the southern border of Flyland was somewhere close to the present "Afsluitdijk".


Maybe better: between Medemblik and Stavoren.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 01:21 PM.


#11593    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:18 PM

 Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Apparently Flyland is named after the land where the river Fly/Vlie/Fleho ran through, like the river Rhine runs to the German Rhineland.

You would say in English: 'a running river". We would say (in old fashioned Dutch) "een vliedende rivier". We still have many streams here that are called "Vliet".

In English you have "to flee":

flee
O.E. fleon "take flight, fly from, avoid, escape" (contracted class II strong verb; past tense fleah, pp. flogen), from P.Gmc. *thleukhanan (cf. O.H.G. fliohan, O.N. flöja, O.Fris. flia, Du. vlieden, Ger. fliehen, Goth. þliuhan "to flee"), of unknown origin. Not found outside Germanic. Weak pt./pp. fled emerged M.E., under influence of Scandinavian. O.E. had a trans. form, geflieman "put to flight," which came in handy in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


But the Dutch word 'vlieden' also means, 'to escape', 'to run away', or 'to run fast'.

I assume the Fleho/Fly/Vlie was a fast running river, and it's source was the Flevo Lake which already existed in Roman times.

So Flyland is not the land that was once the bottom of the Zuiderzee/IJsselmeer, but the land north of that lake.

.

Righto. To fly is really to flee - fight or flight - maybe because it's where the water flowed out - flee'd. flowed out, escaped from.

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#11594    Otharus

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:25 PM

 Otharus, on 14 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

English "BAD" <== Fryan "BALD" ==> Dutch "BAL(D)"

Most of this post is in the original language.
Apologies for those who can't read it.

~ ~ ~

Etymologicum Teutonicae Linguae (1599) ~ Cornelis Kiliaan (1528-1607)

Posted Image
Bal. vetus holl. Malus, inutilis.
bal-daed. vetus. Malefactum, maleficium.
bal-daedigh. vetus holl fland. J. boos. Malus, maleficus.
bal-daedigh. rectius bald-daedigh. Audax.
Bald. vetus J. boude. Audax.
bald-daedigh. Audax, temerarius, praeceps.


Note:
'Vetus' means that even in 1599 the terms were considered oldfashioned.
'Audax' (Latin) can have a positive (1) as well as a negative (2) meaning:
1) bold, daring, audacious
2) reckless, brutal, rash

~ ~ ~

Pieter Hooft (1581-1647)

"Ha! dat zoo maghtigh een' meenighte (men maakt'er onlanx tweehondertduizent mannen af) smaak hebbende van 't bloedt en den buit, met heillooze Godvergeetenheit en helsche raazerye bezeeten, verwoedt door 't wroeghen haars gewissen, en 't verwachten der weederwraak, in deeze slaap, (als 't zoo heeten moet) yet anders dan versche vloekverwantschappen, balddaadt en landt bederf droomen zoude, zal my niemandt diets maaken." ~ Nederlandsche Historien p.153 (1642-1647)

"De Hartogh, ongewoon zoodaane ranken te dulden, vond nochtans niet naaders, dan hun eenigh geldt toe te schikken; met toezeg van voldoening, en vergiffenis der balddaadigheit." ~ Idem p.216

"Maar hy, wel darrende bestaan zyn' Majesteit te verkloeken, en de zelve eens voor al van haaren toeleg te versteeken, vond middel om zich van daar t'ontsteelen; ging tot Alva een' pleghtigh huwelyk, met zyn' nichte, dochter van Don Garsia de Toledo, voltrekken; en keerde daarnaa in zyn' gevankenis. Welke balddaadt te hoove oovergebraght zynde, en dat zy door aanraaden van zynen vaader gepleeght was; bande de Koning den Hartogh zelf in Uzeda, en hield hem daar, tot dat het oorlogh van Portugal opquam." ~ Idem p.342

"D'Ommelanders toonden zich gesmydigh; de Groningers gansch onrekkelyk: der wyze, dat de gezanten, naa 't spillen aller reedenen, tot het uyterst van hunnen last koomen moesten, en hun te verstaan gaaven, dat, 't en waar zy zich voeghden, de gemelde Staaten doen zouden 't geen zy noode deeden. 'T welk echter geen' vrucht, dan groote verbittering, baarde. Vorders bleef het tot Gent by den verhaalden oploop niet; maar de beroerte dier stadt deed heel Vlaandre schokken; mits d'aanstichters, geprikkelt +van 't gewisse zulk eener balddaadt, veyligheit in 't getal zochten, en de gebuursteeden ook aan hunne koorde te kryghen." ~ Idem p.547

"Hiermeede gaan zy af, lichten de sleutels der kerke van den Koster, en preeken daar noch voor middagh. Deezer maate was 't, dat alstoen de bandt der eenigheit kraakte en kracht leed, door de balddaad en reukeloosheit der geenen, die, geblinddoekt van eyghe liefde en goeddunkenheit, eer lange, 't gansche Landt, en zich zelve in den uitersten last braghten." ~ Idem p.589

"Ende naa 't raamen van zeekren voet op 't stuk van Ruiskeveldt, tot behaaghen der gemaghtighden, als de regeerders meinden dat de zaamening te scheiden hadde, beginnen straatsteenen en geweer te wanken, met schreeuwen, dat deez de tydt was om voor 't geloof te vechten, en dat zy, wel zeeven teeghens een', nu zien wilden wie hen dwingen zouw. Onder andre balddaadigheden, werd den Amptman een' byl naa 't hooft geworpen. En 't stond'er geschooren om op een' grouwzaame bloedtstorting uit te koomen; mits de bezettelingen en Onroomsche poorters ook toeliepen, brandende om in den hoop te slaan." ~ Idem p.791

"Een' andren zwaay naamen de dingen tot Gent; daar Jan van Imbyze, hebbende 't zelfste voorneemen als de Prins van Chimay, dan 't zelfste ontzigh niet, nocht ook de stoffe eeven leenigh om ze naa zynen zin te kneeden, nochtans met geen' gelyke behendigheit te werke ging; maar in 't brouwen van verraadt, door ooverdwaalsche balddaadt en zyn' eighe reukeloosheit, verraaden werd." ~ Idem p.895

"Want het krysvolk houdende bezetting in die oorden, dreef, dat al de ingezeetenen, hier door, ten zwaarde ende vuure waaren oovergegeeven; zulx de soldaat met hun, naar zyn welbehaaghen, moght omspringen. Waar op bystere balddaadt, ooverlast, en kneeveling volghde, tot zwaare steurnis der Ridderschap en steeden van Ooveryssel, die, derhalven, hunne gemaghtighden, aan den Raadt van Staate ter oostzyde der Maaze, schikten, om te vertoonen dat zoodaanigh een besluit, en 't geene daar uit sproot, onchristelyk was; en te verzoeken, dat men van 't aangevangen werk afliete." ~ Idem p.949

Note: in earlier works (1626, 1627, 1635), Hooft spelled the word with one D.

~ ~ ~

Jacobus Kok (?-1788)

"Dit staal eener zo verregaande balddaadigheid ging gepaard met een gerugt, dat deeze Grafplaats geheel zou vernield worden; dat, op den volgenden avond, eene bende Graauws, ten getale van driehonderd, ter voltooijing dier Grafschennisse, zou opdaagen." ~ Bijvoegzels op het Vaderlandsch Woordenboek (1748)

~ ~ ~

"Reizen van Jonas Hanway" (1755), vertaling uit het Engels door Izaak & Johannes Enschede en  Jan Bosch, stadsdrukkers resp. boekverkoper te Haarlem

"... hoe komt het dan, [...] dat de eerlykste man, en braefste krygsgebieder in een leger, verpligt is om zyn ampt te verlaten, wanneer hy geweigerd heeft in een tweegevegt te treden, al is hy daertoe uitgedaegd door een persoon, wiens domme onbezonnendheit hem koen maekt, of liever stout en balddaedig, en die dus eene strenge straf verdiende omdat hy de rust der maetschappye stoort?" (p.375)
and:
"... de geschiedenis van een Engelsch edelman, karsversch uit Parys gekomen, klagende over de balddadigheit der lakkaejen in London; en wenschende dat eenige derzelve van agter de koets hunner heeren geworpen wierden. Zyn vader, een meester van de groote wetenschap der vryheit, bestrafte hem door aentemerken, dat, schoon veele dezer knegts waerlyk zeer balddaedig waren, zulks een natuurlyk uitwerksel was van de vryheit op gemeene goederen; en dat de gemelde remedie erger dan de quael zou zyn: want hetzelfde gezag, 't welk de knegts om dusdanig misdryf van agter de koets wierp, den meester vanuit de koets mogt werpen. In tegenstelling van dit voorbeeld der misbruikte vryheit, stel ik de balddaedigheit der lakkaejen onder willekeurige magt: gelyk te Paris, daer de knegts deel aen 't gezag hunner heeren hebben; daer luiden van hoogen rang en ampte hun willekeurig gezag meedeelen aen hunne dienstboden; en daer de lakkaejen mogelyk veel erger zyn dan in London." (p.416)

~ ~ ~

Nederduitsch Taalkundig Woordenboek (1801) ~ Pieter Weiland (1754-1842)

Posted Image
Note 1): unchanged in 1826 edition
Note 2): under "Moeskoppen" (verb):
"Moeskoppen [...] Stroopen, vrijbuiten, het land afloopen. Men gebruikt het woord van balddadig krijgsvolk, dat de boeren knevelt."

~ ~ ~

Uitlegkundig Woordenboek op de Werken van Pieter Kz. Hooft (1825) ~ Het Koninklijk-Nederlandsche Instituut van Wetenschappen, Letterkunde en Schoone Kunsten

Posted Image
Note:
"Intusschen vindt men op vele plaatsen balddaad geschreven, waar, volgens de voorgedragene onderscheiding, baldaad beter zou voegen. [...] Eene enkele reis ook ontmoet men baldaad, waar men balddaad zou wachten. [...] In 't gemeen komt balddaad veel menigvuldiger voor dan baldaad."

~ ~ ~

"De laatste Heiden in Overijssel. ~ Men verklaarde van regeringswege de vagebonden vogelvrij. Dit was onder anderen in Overijssel het geval met de zoogenaamde Zigeuners of Heidens. Het is bekend dat de laatste Zigeuner in Overijssel in het laatste gedeelte der vorige eeuw, een oud onschuldig man, balddadig doodgeschoten werd door een boerenzoon." ~ De Navorscher (1862)

~ ~ ~

Franck's Etymologisch Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal (1912, 2e druk, naar bron 1892) ~ N. van Wijk

"baldadig [...] Balddadig is niet anders dan een verkeerde spelling, reeds in de 16e eeuw uitgedacht door etymologen, die het woord met het bij boud besproken adjectief combineerden."

~ ~ ~

Keur van Nederlandsche woordafleidingen (1911) ~ T. Pluim

"Balddadig is feitelijk ’t zelfde woord als ’t voorgaande [baldadig], maar men hield het eerste lid voor bald, boud. Dit bald komt afzonderlijk in onze taal niet voor, wel in ’t Duitsch, en bet. koen, stoutmoedig, dapper, snel (thans in de laatste bet. in ’t Hgd.). Het Oudnoorsche baldr bet. vorst (voor wien dapperheid een eerste vereischte is, dus de dappere bij uitstek), vandaar de godennaam Balder. Ook in Boudewijn (Baldewin) komt het woord nog voor: de moedige vriend."

~ ~ ~

Beknopt etymologisch woordenboek der Nederlandsche taal (1925) ~ J. Vercoullie

"balddadig - hetzelfde als baldadig, in een kunstmatige spelling door bijgedachte aan *bald = boud."

~ ~ ~

Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek (1971) ~ J. de Vries

"baldadig [...] De reeds in de 16de eeuw opgekomen spelling balddadig berust op geleerde verbinding met het onder boud besproken woord."

~ ~ ~

Een glossarium van zeventiende-eeuws Nederlands (1975) ~ H.D. Tjeenk Willink

"balddaad, slechte, snode, onrechtvaardige handeling"

~ ~ ~

... I am still working on my conclusion, which will be easier after having posted this.

Edited by Otharus, 15 May 2012 - 01:56 PM.


#11595    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:00 PM

Lumka makia could be in any of these words as place names imo. Lew is interesting, a very Frisian word - Leu - didn't you think Lummer once? I can't find that place but thought you did Abe. LAUW in Dutch, any places around that start with that, I'd image so...

From Old Danish ljunken, from Old Norse *ljumka, *lumka ("to warm"), from Proto-Germanic *hlēwanōnan (“to make warm”), *hleumaz, *hlūmaz (“warm”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱal(w)e-, *ḱel(w)e-, *k(')lēw- (“warm, hot”). Cognate with Old Swedish lionkin (“lukewarm”), Old Swedish liumber (“warm, mild, tepid”), Swedish dialectal lumma (“to be hot”), Old Saxon halōian (“to burn”). See lukewarm.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lunken


From Middle English lukewarme (“lukewarm, tepid”), equivalent to luke (“lukewarm”) +‎ warm. First element believed to be an alteration of Middle English lew (“tepid”), from Old English hlēow (“warm, sunny”), from Proto-Germanic *hliwjaz, *hlēwaz, *hlūmaz, *hleumaz (“warm”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱal(w)e-, *ḱel(w)e-, *k(')lēw- (“warm, hot”). Cognate with Dutch lauw (“tepid”), German lauwarm (“lukewarm”), Faroese lýggjur (“warm”), Swedish ljum (“lukewarm”), ljummen (“lukewarm”) and ly (“warm”), Danish lummer (“muggy”), Danish and Norwegian lunken (“tepid”), Swedish dialectal ljunken (“lukwarm”).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lukewarm

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 02:02 PM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger