Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Ice blades threaten Europa landing


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 10,234 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

Jupiter's icy moon Europa is a prime target for future space missions as it harbours a buried ocean that could have the right conditions for life.

But attempts to land may face a major hazard: jagged "blades" of ice up to 10m long. A major US conference has heard the moon may have ideal conditions for icy spikes called "penitentes" to form.

Scientists would like to send a lander down to sample surface regions where water wells up through the icy crust. These areas could allow a robotic probe to sample a proxy for ocean water that lies several kilometres deep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-21341176

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#2    ash68

ash68

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined:13 Oct 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vientiane- Laos PDR

  • It doesn't matter what you think you are,but what you think,you are
    Celsus

Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:58 PM

I'd assume to get through the ice you would use an explosive as the energy required to make sufficient heat would require a large craft/satellite so wouldn't this automatically solve this issue?  If some one knows please advise me


#3    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 10,234 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:17 PM

View Postashven, on 23 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'd assume to get through the ice you would use an explosive as the energy required to make sufficient heat would require a large craft/satellite so wouldn't this automatically solve this issue?  If some one knows please advise me

I dont know if an explosion on a planet/moon that may harbor life is a good idea or would be considered. But then again something will be needed to get under the surface. But the article didnt specifically say that those spikes exists, only that they could. Perhaps once we send probes to do close up flybys with, we may find there is more suitable places to gain entry...  hopefully anyway!

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#4    marcos anthony toledo

marcos anthony toledo

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2009

Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:12 PM

There are cracks in the ice that would offer access to the ocean of Europa easier than was once thought.


#5    highdesert50

highdesert50

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • Joined:09 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:26 AM

Might be able to launch projectiles at the surface, as they did on Earth's moon, and examine the plumes' materials by the craft in orbit.


#6    Lava_Lady

Lava_Lady

    Official UM Asylum Resident

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,832 posts
  • Joined:20 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hawai'i

  • Wha? /:0\

Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:41 AM

They look frightening!  But if just ice should be reasonably easy to clear for a landing, no?  I can barely wait for a rover to land on Europa!  Hurry up NASA!

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#7    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 10,234 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:05 PM

View Postmarcos anthony toledo, on 23 March 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

There are cracks in the ice that would offer access to the ocean of Europa easier than was once thought.


I know we do see a scarred surface, but might they have cracked and refrozen, just leaving the scars? I guess we need to get a close flyby going on, or even an orbital satellite to peer closely at suitable landing places

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#8    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 10,234 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostLava_Lady, on 24 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

They look frightening!  But if just ice should be reasonably easy to clear for a landing, no?  I can barely wait for a rover to land on Europa!  Hurry up NASA!

hehe yeh you wouldn't want to sit on one would you!?!  But I agree, Ive almost convinced myself that 'something' is alive and swimming about in those oceans under the ice... hope Im still alive when we know for sure !

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#9    CrimsonKing

CrimsonKing

    Common Sense Aficionado

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DarkSide of TheMoon

  • "It does not require a majority to prevail,but rather an irate,tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds" Sam Adams

Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Postseeder, on 24 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

hehe yeh you wouldn't want to sit on one would you!?!  But I agree, Ive almost convinced myself that 'something' is alive and swimming about in those oceans under the ice... hope Im still alive when we know for sure !

Do you think there are a few AA swimming about on Europa seeder?  :o  jk

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#10    Lava_Lady

Lava_Lady

    Official UM Asylum Resident

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,832 posts
  • Joined:20 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hawai'i

  • Wha? /:0\

Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:47 AM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 24 March 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:



Do you think there are a few AA swimming about on Europa seeder?  :o  jk

I think humans would be the only aliens if we landed on Europa... Lol

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#11    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,833 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:23 AM

Do we need to "land" as such? Could we send something with a strong shield in at high speed and bury it in the ice seeming as we need to get through quite a few kilometers of Ice already?

Edited by psyche101, 26 March 2013 - 09:24 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#12    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 10,234 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:12 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 26 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Do we need to "land" as such? Could we send something with a strong shield in at high speed and bury it in the ice seeming as we need to get through quite a few kilometers of Ice already?

I think that fact alone will make it a very difficult task. When the Russians drilled lake Vostok, well they used drills!  20 years drilling for for 40 liters of juice!

http://www.dailymail...Antarctica.html

So we need something that can get in lots quicker...obviously perhaps!

Now for a vid, and despite the title its nothing to do with the AA crowd! 'Aliens of the Deep & Mission to Europa'

quote: "Wherever we find water on earth, we find life"!  (The Europa bit starts at approx 4.30 ms onwards but its all good to watch)




But if they do it the way the vid proposes, how might the probe get out? Or can we send signals thru ice? Europa is an exciting prospect for sure, but could we pull it off?  I certainly hope so, fingers crossed eh?





.

Edited by seeder, 28 March 2013 - 06:15 PM.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#13    Waspie_Dwarf

Waspie_Dwarf

    Space Cadet

  • 32,178 posts
  • Joined:03 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bexleyheath, Kent, UK

  • We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

    Oscar Wilde

Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:25 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 26 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Do we need to "land" as such?
Absolutely yes we do.

There is no point sending a probe through the ice into the ocean below if it can not transmit its findings back to Earth. That is going to require a transmitter on the surface to relay the signals either to an orbiter and then on to Earth or directly back to Earth.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

Posted Image
Click on button

#14    CrimsonKing

CrimsonKing

    Common Sense Aficionado

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,599 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DarkSide of TheMoon

  • "It does not require a majority to prevail,but rather an irate,tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds" Sam Adams

Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:40 PM

What do you think would be the best way of getting through the ice waspie?Heat,crash through,drill?Do we have any idea if the cracks in the ice are much thinner than the rest or is it about the same thickness?

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#15    Waspie_Dwarf

Waspie_Dwarf

    Space Cadet

  • 32,178 posts
  • Joined:03 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bexleyheath, Kent, UK

  • We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

    Oscar Wilde

Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 28 March 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

What do you think would be the best way of getting through the ice waspie?Heat,crash through,drill?Do we have any idea if the cracks in the ice are much thinner than the rest or is it about the same thickness?

To be honest I don't know.

I suspect that the ice will be too thick to crash through. Some of the proposals for melting through the ice look promising, but the only exist on paper at the moment. I suspect that, unless we find some very thin ice, drilling is going to be out of the question. The weight of the boring equipment would be prohibitive. Besides if we do find thin ice.

I think what this topic is really highlighting is the need for orbiter missions first, to map Europa's surface in enough detail that lnding missions can be planned an carried out with a high probability of success.

NASA and other space agencies have always taken a step by step approach to exploration. First fly-bys, then orbiters and only then landers. This is how the explored the Moon and how they are exploring Mars.

In topic after topic I have defended this approach from people impatient to send landers to destinations such as Europa. This topic is a great demonstration of why NASA's approach is the correct one. If such ice blades do exist sending a lander to Europa would have a very high probability of failure. We need to know if and where it is safe to land, then, when there is enough information, the planning can take place of how best to achieve that goal.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

Posted Image
Click on button




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users