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Bush knowingly ordered torture


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#106    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:35 PM

RavenHawk

I'm beginning to think that you have watched "Zero Dark Thirty" one too many times, and embrace it as some sort of philosophical ideal.  Whatever.

When I post and when I speak, I try my level best to use words in accordance with their definitions.

So, when I say torture is illegal, I mean that it is against the written law, US statutes.  Same as certain drugs are illegal--there is a law against possessing them.

You, as you have admitted here, embrace John Yoo and George Bush's sophistry in that regard, and frankly, I've had enough of this.  I cannot respect or admire a person who advocates for torture.  :td:  That you appear to be in some sort of denial about this is a personal problem.  Best wishes.


#107    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 May 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'm beginning to think that you have watched "Zero Dark Thirty" one too many times, and embrace it as some sort of philosophical ideal.  Whatever.
Actually, I have not seen it.  It is on my list of movies to watch though.

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When I post and when I speak, I try my level best to use words in accordance with their definitions.
Actually you donít.  ďIllegalĒ you have down but ďtortureĒ you havenít and youíre trying to tie them together without understanding the scope.  Iíve discussed the torture spectrum but I guess you consider all torture as illegal?  Thatís a bit naÔve donít you think?  So when we were involved with ethnic cleansing, we as a nation were committing an illegal act?  Where was that in the written law, US statues?

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So, when I say torture is illegal, I mean that it is against the written law, US statutes.  Same as certain drugs are illegal--there is a law against possessing them.
I donít do drugs but if someone wants to posses them, then they should be able to do so.  I think that when a government makes it illegal to possess things, then that government has gone too far.  So itís this law that is illegal.  But this isnít the same as torture.  Many things can be black and white.  This is not one of them.

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You, as you have admitted here, embrace John Yoo and George Bush's sophistry in that regard, and frankly, I've had enough of this.  I cannot respect or admire a person who advocates for torture.  :td:  That you appear to be in some sort of denial about this is a personal problem.  Best wishes.
So you still havenít answered the question.  Why?

No, I am not in denial.  I fully support the proper application of torture.  Things like data mining, prisoner pacification, and even limited ethnic cleansing are perfectly acceptable uses.  I donít care if you respect me or not, just donít be so naÔve.

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#108    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:10 PM

Oh really?!!!  I just read this in the other thread.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 May 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

I have not bought into that "liberal/conserative" model for many years.  Labels can be helpful many times, but are more often misleading and incomplete.

My 'liberal' friends call me conservative, and my 'conservative' friends call me liberal.  Oh, the inadequacy of language....

I donít think you have anything to stand on when you demand such a *misleading and incomplete* definition of ďillegal tortureĒ.  Youíve just shown yourself to be quite inconsistent.

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#109    Babe Ruth

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

Here is where I am consistent RH:  Assault is wrong, and assault is illegal.  Torture is assault.

I know you have rationalized yourself into seeing a wrong action as a right action, as long as some government official says it's OK.

Bush tortured, and everybody knows it.

I have no desire to 'debate' with you on this point any longer.

Edited by Babe Ruth, 08 May 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#110    Harte

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

If assault is wrong, then FDR should've been tried for the D-Day massacre of innocent Germans.

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#111    RavenHawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 08 May 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Here is where I am consistent RH:  Assault is wrong, and assault is illegal.  Torture is assault.
If this is you being consistent, then you are wrong.  Assault is not wrong or illegal or at the very least, ďit dependsĒ.  As Harte stated, if that is so then every commander in history needs to be tried for war crimes.  George Washington is especially despicable.  You are being uber naÔve.

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I know you have rationalized yourself into seeing a wrong action as a right action,
The Geneva Convention was the first attempt to legislate warfare.  After thousands of years of warfare, then all of a sudden within the last 150 years, torture is now illegal??  This is more uber naivety.  Yes, these are laws but have these laws never prevented torture in the past 150 years?  Now after the fact, a tip-of-the-iceberg have been brought to answer for abuses of torture.  But that did not prevent torture nor will it prevent it in the future.  I suppose you didnít understand Shermanís quote?

With that said, this doesnít mean that the Articles of Convention should not be observed but that should be dependent on the battlefield commander and the sensibilities of the combatants.

Data mining and prisoner pacification are vital elements of handling the captured enemy.  You do know that even the local law enforcement partakes in torture to interrogate prisoners.  And if a group of homeless creates a makeshift shanty town down by the river, the police will use a form of ethnic cleansing to chase them off.  This is not rationalizing but if you want to be believed in your stance of torture being wrong, shouldnít it include *ALL* forms?  Or is it that when it directly affects your safety, then itís ok?

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as long as some government official says it's OK.
The signees of the Geneva Convention were just some government officials.

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Bush tortured, and everybody knows it.
Well, more precisely, Bush allowed means to be used to data mine.  Either way, no one is denying that torture occurred under Bush.  That is what Yooís job was, to find out how to legally torture.  And Yoo was very successful.  He did his job well.

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I have no desire to 'debate' with you on this point any longer.
You have no desire because you donít dare answer a simple question because it would riddle your position.  But thatís ok, I think Iíve already responded to what your answer would be.

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#112    Babe Ruth

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostHarte, on 08 May 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

If assault is wrong, then FDR should've been tried for the D-Day massacre of innocent Germans.

Harte

All's fair in love and war.  At least FDR was working under a legal declaration of war.  Dubya and the entire federal government were working under the fraud of the events of 11 September.


#113    RavenHawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 08 May 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

All's fair in love and war.  At least FDR was working under a legal declaration of war.  Dubya and the entire federal government were working under the fraud of the events of 11 September.
Wrong!  They were working under Saddamís violation of the cease fire which gave us legal authority to act.  The unfortunate thing was that the core cause for violating the cease fire *AND* 9/11 was ultimately the very same thing and they rightfully merged.  Many incorrectly saw that as fraud but In the long run, it really didnít matter.  Trying to make the case for war for two separate wars would just have confused the issue.  It was expedient to merge the two.  Instead of having two barbarians at the gate, we just made it one barbarian.  Nothing wrong with that.

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#114    Babe Ruth

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:07 PM

You and I do not share the same fantasies RH, it's just that simple.

Because everyman is entitled to a fantasy or 2, as far as I'm concerned.

But everyman must know the difference between fantasy and reality, too.  Unfortunately, some men cannot quite perceive reality--they are more ruled by fantasy.

One must be able to step back and analyze in terms of reality.  Not theory and not fantasy, but reality.


#115    Harte

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 08 May 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

All's fair in love and war.  At least FDR was working under a legal declaration of war.  Dubya and the entire federal government were working under the fraud of the events of 11 September.

You mean an act of Congress, authorizing the war.

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#116    Harte

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 08 May 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

You and I do not share the same fantasies RH, it's just that simple.
The fact that Hussein never even met one stipulation he agreed to after Desert Storm is only a fantasy to feeble minds that cannot control their own thought processes when it comes to partisan thinking.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#117    RavenHawk

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 08 May 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

You and I do not share the same fantasies RH, it's just that simple.

Because everyman is entitled to a fantasy or 2, as far as I'm concerned.

But everyman must know the difference between fantasy and reality, too.  Unfortunately, some men cannot quite perceive reality--they are more ruled by fantasy.

One must be able to step back and analyze in terms of reality.  Not theory and not fantasy, but reality.
Admitting that you have trouble separating fantasy and reality is a good first step.  But you are right about stepping back and analyzing the reality.  You have to disenthrall yourself from things like the MSM and party line.  Thatís pretty much what I do.  You can do the same, just keep at it.

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#118    Babe Ruth

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostHarte, on 09 May 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

The fact that Hussein never even met one stipulation he agreed to after Desert Storm is only a fantasy to feeble minds that cannot control their own thought processes when it comes to partisan thinking.

Harte

Oh that Saddam, he was a bad, bad boy!





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