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Siberian mystery creature


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#61    U. N.Owen

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:08 AM

As regards to the various problems people are having with searches: I live and work in Russia and I am dealing with this issue on an ongoing basis.Short of being fluent in Russian and having a Cyrillic keyboard, there are always going to be problems with this.

First of all the name of the Lake and the people you have been given are transliterations -ie they are are attempts to reproduce the phonetic sound of  words in the Cyrilic alphabet.As there are more than one variations of transliterated words - although there is a British Standard (BSI 2979) -  it is not so surprising that search engines do not pick them up.(In fact,there are some letters and vowel sounds in Russian which have no precise equivalents in the English language).

Google Translate etc cannot be relied upon to produce accurate translations of texts in these sorts of instances (otherwise the whole translating industry, and industry it is, would become redundant!)

There is a wealth of writing in Russia - business related material, novels, and, yes, paranormal related writings- that have never been translated into English and are not likely to be so in the foreseeable future. The reason for this is simple: for such texts to be translated you need someone who is fluent in Russian and fluent in English and  then able to mediate between the two. There are not a great many people who can do this, and those that do do not come cheap!

I should also point out that Russian is a language that does not directly translate into English, and vice versa. Any translation is always only an approximation  of what was originally intended.

I am a teacher of English in Russia and I am constantly having to remind my students not to rely on translation software, and not to try and translate English directly into Russian! The same applies here.

I have spent time in West Siberia and it is difficult to get across just how vast and sparsely populated the region is! It is quite possible that the people around Lake `Labynykgr` (or whatever!) are not even Russian speakers but belong to some ethnic tribe such as the Khanti-Mansisk, for example.

I know of two Lake monster traditions in Russia. One is Lake Brosno - not so far from Moscow apparently- which is home to the `Brosno dragon`, a Nessie-like creature which long predates Nessie. There is some English language material about this on the net, but not much. The other is Lake Ladoshkoi (my transliteration!) which I have some hard copy material on in the from of an article about it in a Russian magazine of the Unexplained.

Good luck with your searches on those, if you are so inclined!


#62    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:39 PM

On a side note (just thought I'd throw in my two cents). A few pages back, the person who mentioned it couldn't possibly be a sturgeon because the creature was apparently 15-30 feet in lenght...well, the Frasier/Columbian Basin sturgeon were known to get up to twenty + feet in length (before they were almost fished to extinction) and I am sure there is one or two more "monster sized" fish still out there. So if there are sturgeon in that drainage basin or a neighbouring one (sturgeon can go into the salt water no problem), I would bet on many of these "lake monsters" being sturgeon, like BC's ogopogo and the such. Just my two cents, carry on.


#63    Macroramphosis

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 25 September 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

A few pages back, the person who mentioned it couldn't possibly be a sturgeon because the creature was apparently 15-30 feet in lenght...well, the Frasier/Columbian Basin sturgeon were known to get up to twenty + feet in length (before they were almost fished to extinction) and I am sure there is one or two more "monster sized" fish still out there. So if there are sturgeon in that drainage basin or a neighbouring one (sturgeon can go into the salt water no problem), I would bet on many of these "lake monsters" being sturgeon, like BC's ogopogo and the such. Just my two cents, carry on.

That was I who mentioned the implausibility of it, but not the impossibility. I said, "Nor a sturgeon, and nor a giant salamander - well, no sturgeon in such instances as to meet the qualifications of contemporary monster evidence posted by witnesses (15 - 30' long, head shaped like a horse with a mane, etc etc), anyway."  -  in essence I was pointing out that no sturgeon had ever been found to answer a sighting. I am well aware of how large sturgeon grow, but there are two main problems with this argument (we'll leave the giant salamander out of the equation for now).

1. A large sturgeon may exist, but it will be at the top of the pyramidal fish pile. Where are the hundreds or thousands of smaller sturgeon ? To the best of my knowledge, sturgeon begin life as eggs (think caviar) and do not suddenly appear as a 15'+ fish.
2. If we are considering existing species is that the biggest species of sturgeon on the asian continent is not known to exist in the far east of that landmass.

I am more than happy to meet a new species of sturgeon, I hasten to add. A new fish species, especially from freshwater and of that size, would be a true discovery, almost as exciting as a giant salamander or a lake monster, :D

Edited by Macroramphosis, 25 September 2012 - 05:16 PM.

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#64    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostU. N.Owen, on 25 September 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

As regards to the various problems people are having with searches: I live and work in Russia and I am dealing with this issue on an ongoing basis.Short of being fluent in Russian and having a Cyrillic keyboard, there are always going to be problems with this.

First of all the name of the Lake and the people you have been given are transliterations -ie they are are attempts to reproduce the phonetic sound of  words in the Cyrilic alphabet.As there are more than one variations of transliterated words - although there is a British Standard (BSI 2979) -  it is not so surprising that search engines do not pick them up.(In fact,there are some letters and vowel sounds in Russian which have no precise equivalents in the English language).

Google Translate etc cannot be relied upon to produce accurate translations of texts in these sorts of instances (otherwise the whole translating industry, and industry it is, would become redundant!)

There is a wealth of writing in Russia - business related material, novels, and, yes, paranormal related writings- that have never been translated into English and are not likely to be so in the foreseeable future. The reason for this is simple: for such texts to be translated you need someone who is fluent in Russian and fluent in English and  then able to mediate between the two. There are not a great many people who can do this, and those that do do not come cheap!

I should also point out that Russian is a language that does not directly translate into English, and vice versa. Any translation is always only an approximation  of what was originally intended.

I am a teacher of English in Russia and I am constantly having to remind my students not to rely on translation software, and not to try and translate English directly into Russian! The same applies here.

I have spent time in West Siberia and it is difficult to get across just how vast and sparsely populated the region is! It is quite possible that the people around Lake `Labynykgr` (or whatever!) are not even Russian speakers but belong to some ethnic tribe such as the Khanti-Mansisk, for example.

I know of two Lake monster traditions in Russia. One is Lake Brosno - not so far from Moscow apparently- which is home to the `Brosno dragon`, a Nessie-like creature which long predates Nessie. There is some English language material about this on the net, but not much. The other is Lake Ladoshkoi (my transliteration!) which I have some hard copy material on in the from of an article about it in a Russian magazine of the Unexplained.

Good luck with your searches on those, if you are so inclined!

U.N. Owen, thanks!


#65    TheSpoonyOne

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:26 PM

Quote

The reason for this is simple: for such texts to be translated you need someone who is fluent in Russian and fluent in English and  then able to mediate between the two. There are not a great many people who can do this

Seriously? In the 2012 there aren't a great many people who can speak both Russian and English? I really doubt that!

I can flick over to Russia Today on SKY and find a bunch of people who can speak Russian and English fluently.


#66    DKO

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:59 PM

There's a member on here who can speak both English and Russian. I forget his name, on a phone right now can't search for it. But he translated a few Russian archaeology videos to English.

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#67    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:15 AM

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That was I who mentioned the implausibility of it, but not the impossibility.

I'd argue its not even that implausible, for many large river systems in russia are home to sturgeon. Sturgeon usually prefer rivers, but will sometimes go into the lakes to look for food, etc. Hence not seeing many signs of them in the lakes, yet, occasionally seeing one jump, etc, or wash up dead. (and yes, its kinda freaky seeing a 10+ foot fish randomly jump :o )


#68    Macroramphosis

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:37 AM

I've seen plenty of large fish jump over the years, most of them bigger than 10', and I agree - it can be freaky if you're not expecting it.

As for this instance and sturgeon, I'm having trouble finding a river with a sufficient depth, width and flow associated with this lake. I see a stream at the south end, but nothing for surgeon to spawn in, which is a necessity I think.

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#69    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:49 PM

Quote


As for this instance and sturgeon, I'm having trouble finding a river with a sufficient depth, width and flow associated with this lake. I see a stream at the south end, but nothing for surgeon to spawn in, which is a necessity I think.




Not trying to be difficult, but sturgeon do travel through some pretty shallow waters. I know there is a small river (in the summer more like a stream) near my home that connects into the frasier river, and I caught a two foot sturgeon in it once. o.O Great fun. But sturgeon have been known to travel and sometimes into seemingly unlikely places. Now, is this "unknown" simply a sturgeon? I don't know. I think it could be. But I have never been to Siberia, nor this lake, so I cannot say. Eitherway, neat topic. Cheers.


#70    Sakari

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 26 September 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I've seen plenty of large fish jump over the years, most of them bigger than 10', and I agree - it can be freaky if you're not expecting it.

As for this instance and sturgeon, I'm having trouble finding a river with a sufficient depth, width and flow associated with this lake. I see a stream at the south end, but nothing for surgeon to spawn in, which is a necessity I think.



I caught a 6 footer on the Rogue, and there are much bigger Sturgeon than that in there.......Below is part of the rogue, and Sturgeon are above that area....Picture above that is a Rogue sturegon. ( Oregon River )...They can swim shallow waters..I have fished the Coos, and the Columbian also.Much bigger rivers.


Here is a link to video of rogue river sturgeons....Not a youtube, so can not put the media here.

http://southernorego...river-sturgeon/











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#71    Macroramphosis

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:09 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Macroramphosis, 27 September 2012 - 04:10 PM.

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#72    Sakari

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 27 September 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Posted Image


Crap, if that was for me...oops....I meant to add that there are land locked sturgeon, many of them.....I know you said you only saw a stream, I was not trying to compare...

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#73    DKO

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:43 PM

Birds transport fish eggs as well. Unlikely but it does happen.

Just throwing out a reason for how a river fish could end up in a remote lake. Not saying that's what has happened, but a large fish in this lake is a lot more likely than a 'unidentified creature'.

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Some wading birds relocate fish eggs that get stuck to their legs, thereby aiding in fish dispersal to other parts of a river or marsh.

http://www.extension...tance_Birds.htm

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#74    Ell

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostHabitat, on 20 September 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Almost as intriguing as this "Nesski" is the fact it's lake never freezes over, although in the coldest region in the world.
http://www.courierma...o-1226477728571
From the 1920s story I surmise that the creature observed at that time might be a gavial or crocodilian.


#75    Macroramphosis

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:00 AM

New news of the giant newt. Plus some extras......

http://rbth.ru/trave...ness_24353.html

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